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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #60 on: 12:25:55, 24-08-2007 » |
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opera productions with plenty of tits and bums
That's what I like to see... a well-argued case, well-supported with apposite examples. And not a knee-jerk condemnation based on the contributor's own moral prejudices. Thanks for illustrating exactly the tendency I was referring to, Ian... well done! |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #61 on: 12:33:25, 24-08-2007 » |
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Would saying that Vanessa-Mae is a violinist who trades on wet t-shirts and the like be a problem, in a similar manner? She and her defenders make similar 'anti-elitist' arguments to justify those strategies. (you'd be very wrong if you thought I have some sort of moralistic objection against tits and bums, I just find the tokenistic use of sex to sell things rather tiresome)  |
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« Last Edit: 12:38:56, 24-08-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #62 on: 13:04:49, 24-08-2007 » |
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Strange, Ian, because what you wrote about "operas with lots of tits and bums" didn't have any connection with the point you try to make about Vanessa Mae. you'd be very wrong if you thought I have some sort of moralistic objection against tits and bums Thanks, Ian - I know I can always rely on you to tell me when I'm wrong. You must have had some other reason to mention the non-specific non-exampled knee-jerk-reaction operas with tits and bums, then. Keep going - if you need a shovel to bury yourself deeper, I'll be happy to lend you one. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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increpatio
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« Reply #63 on: 13:10:01, 24-08-2007 » |
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Thanks, Ian - I know I can always rely on you to tell me when I'm wrong. You must have had some other reason to mention the non-specific non-exampled knee-jerk-reaction operas with tits and bums, then.
To a newcomer, it must be said that operas can, I imagine, appear almost one and all to be quite a lot about tits and bums (just as ballet can be all about firm buttocks). |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #64 on: 13:23:21, 24-08-2007 » |
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Strange, Ian, because what you wrote about "operas with lots of tits and bums" didn't have any connection with the point you try to make about Vanessa Mae. Opera productions with lots of tits and bums, please. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #65 on: 13:23:49, 24-08-2007 » |
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Thanks, Ian - I know I can always rely on you to tell me when I'm wrong. You must have had some other reason to mention the non-specific non-exampled knee-jerk-reaction operas with tits and bums, then.
To a newcomer, it must be said that operas can, I imagine, appear almost one and all to be quite a lot about tits and bums (just as ballet can be all about firm buttocks). I'll remember that next time I see a production of Die Soldaten. Perhaps I'll also remember it if ever I experience a momentary desire to write a stage work. To be fair, whilst I think Ian's (a) and (b) to be abit harsh and overly simplistic as such (if, after all, the entire range of reception of "classical music" in UK fell into one or the other category, I'd long since have booked a one-way flight out), he does have a point and I think that some of the responses to some of his recent writings in this thread come across as less than entirely fair. Using "sex" in some form or another to advertise something else (be it "classical music", cars or whatever) can indeed be reasonably regarded as being as tiresome, just as (on the other hand) the denial of any posssibility of reference to sexual frisson of any kind anywhere in the entire world of "classical music" would be untenable. Best, Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #66 on: 13:25:37, 24-08-2007 » |
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Strange, Ian, because what you wrote about "operas with lots of tits and bums" didn't have any connection with the point you try to make about Vanessa Mae. Opera productions with lots of tits and bums, please. Yes, indeed; I did notice that word in your post and its absence in Reiner's; to what extent the latter undermines his point I am not sure, but no doubt he'll let us all know in his response. Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #67 on: 13:26:01, 24-08-2007 » |
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I'll remember that next time I see a production of Die Soldaten. Did you see the Freeman production about ten years ago? Certainly had the requisite tits and bums in that. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #68 on: 13:29:47, 24-08-2007 » |
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I'll remember that next time I see a production of Die Soldaten. Did you see the Freeman production about ten years ago? Certainly had the requisite tits and bums in that. No, I didn't actually (sadly) - so I sit corrected (or at least you have appropriately undermined my example here, which is fine by me, since I presume that you DID see that production!). Anyway, that's a relatively minor (sorry!) issue in the greater scheme of what's now being discussed - which, however, seems to be a fairly substantial digression from any kind of evaluation of the credibility of Sir Paul McCartney, "classical music" composer... Best, Alistair |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #69 on: 13:30:47, 24-08-2007 » |
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to what extent the latter undermines his point I am not sure, but no doubt he'll let us all know in his response. To no extent at all. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #70 on: 13:36:58, 24-08-2007 » |
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the denial of any posssibility of reference to sexual frisson of any kind anywhere in the entire world of "classical music" would be untenable. Certainly, though personally I find an awful lot more sexual frission in something like the example below from the last movement of Ravel's Sonatine (just listen to that quality of 'excess' in the climax, with its unresolved quartal inner parts en route to the resolution) than in any number of opera productions that have a heroine getting their kit off, or in contemporary operas that feature fellatio.  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #71 on: 13:57:00, 24-08-2007 » |
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to what extent the latter undermines his point I am not sure, but no doubt he'll let us all know in his response. To no extent at all. Fair comment - and thank you for making it! Best, Alistair |
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increpatio
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« Reply #72 on: 13:57:46, 24-08-2007 » |
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Strange, Ian, because what you wrote about "operas with lots of tits and bums" didn't have any connection with the point you try to make about Vanessa Mae. Opera productions with lots of tits and bums, please. I was speaking of operas in the holistic sense, not in the sense of the composer's dots on paper (whether or not it explicitly calls for tits and bums (Sibelius will introduce the two appropriate clefs in its next version, I've heard it rumoured  )). I agree that popular/industry use of sex is, indeed, as with many other aspects, overused and tending towards cliché. All very tame, in any event (is that by definition of its popularity though?). But yes, back to PMC, by all regards. Certainly, though personally I find an awful lot more sexual frission in something like the example below from the last movement of Ravel's Sonatine (just listen to that quality of 'excess' in the climax, with its unresolved quartal inner parts en route to the resolution) than in any number of opera productions that have a heroine getting their kit off, or in contemporary operas that feature fellatio.
I don't assume that you don't think this, Ian, but I think it worth making the distinction between a: no sex b: bad sex c: good sex and to assert that, insofar as it is possible, c is preferable to b, not a. (that is to say that saying "people just toss in loads of fellatio and hope it'll sell" carries connotations that "it'd be better without sex". Which, I don't think is your point, but thought worth saying anyway. ) |
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« Last Edit: 13:59:59, 24-08-2007 by increpatio »
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ahinton
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« Reply #73 on: 13:58:05, 24-08-2007 » |
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the denial of any posssibility of reference to sexual frisson of any kind anywhere in the entire world of "classical music" would be untenable. Certainly, though personally I find an awful lot more sexual frission in something like the example below from the last movement of Ravel's Sonatine (just listen to that quality of 'excess' in the climax, with its unresolved quartal inner parts en route to the resolution) than in any number of opera productions that have a heroine getting their kit off, or in contemporary operas that feature fellatio. Nicely put! Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #74 on: 14:03:47, 24-08-2007 » |
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I don't assume that you don't think this, Ian, but I think it worth making the distinction between
a: no sex
b: bad sex
c: good sex
and to assert that, insofar as it is possible, c is preferable to b, not a. (that is to say that saying "people just toss in loads of fellatio and hope it'll sell" carries connotations that "it'd be better without sex". Which, I don't think is your point. No, it certainly isn't. Actually I have more in mind this British attitude that comes from an underlying prurience, thinking that having some token sex in anything is somehow 'naughty' and 'subversive'. There are far deeper expressions of sexuality deeply embedded in a wide range of music than shilling-shocker tactics can achieve. But on the other hand, not all music, nor everything else in the world, is solely about sex, nor need it be, And sex can be a destructive as well as productive force, as, for example, various expressionist writers and artists have explored. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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