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Author Topic: Paul McCartney: honest composer or charlatan?  (Read 3768 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #90 on: 17:06:17, 24-08-2007 »

MUST we look at "the monarchy and the House of Lords"? (I know that Paul McCartney, like Elton John, Michael Jagger and others are knights of the realm, but...). Again, whilst Sorabji did indeed accept that fact that Britain had the monarchy and second chamber that you mention, I would no more claim that he was a devout monarchist than I would suggest that he saw the House of Lords as representative of an "aristocracy" that meant anything much to him; in fact, he once told me that he thought that the paintings of a local ex-railway employee suggested that he was arguably more of an aristocrat than the Lord Beeching who, by reason of his position in that second chamber, actually was regarded as a so-called "aristocrat" but whose cuts had resulted in the loss of his employment.
Rival claims for aristocratic status (over which a great many lives were lost during many centuries) do not deny the aristocratic principle. And when it's tied into racial ideas, the ideology is even worse. But enough on that. Honorary knighthoods are not the same thing as the aristocratic principle, even though they are inevitably tied into such a thing in our society.

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I believe some aspects of high culture can still be redeemed.
Do they need to be? - by which I mean do you really mean "redeemed" or do you mean merely rescued from the pompous snobs and the Classic-FMmers?
If there is to be any future for high culture, or at least classical music, in a society where the majority of people can happily live without it, then yes it does. Not least because (as I continually point out) for its survival on any sort of even moderate scale, both in concert halls and educational institutions, it needs the consent of that wider population towards its funding. Orchestras, opera houses, chamber music series, recital series, new music festivals, etc., etc., could disappear in a flash if their funding was removed. Should those things be supported, or would the money be better spent on trying to give support and aid to those who might be the McCartney's of the future, or in general those who might produce a type of music that far more people want to hear? That question isn't so easy to answer, I think.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #91 on: 17:19:10, 24-08-2007 »

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there are surely other things for which it is worth spending time in Britain, for all its faults

Perhaps there may have been twenty years ago, but this apparent detour actually brings us back to what Ian's asking in the message above...  about what Britain's priorities are in the sphere of public spending on "non-critical" services?  I can't any longer find myself in sympathy with the present priorities, and have gone to where I feel more comfortable (along, I note with interest amid this week's news, 1/10 other Brits who are now residing outside the UK).  I don't say my current country of domicile has got the priorities "right", either... perhaps no country has, or perhaps it is all a matter of opinion. Nor am I interested in getting into a "bidding war" over this Smiley (I have friends in Norway who are quite happy with their lot, though).  All I say is that where I am at the moment suits me better, personally speaking. 
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
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Kittybriton
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Thank you for the music ...


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« Reply #92 on: 17:30:40, 24-08-2007 »

One needs to look forwards, not backwards.
Better still, one surely needs to do both.

Without being two-faced, of course.

Another gem to sit on the mantelpiece alongside
"We have our backs to the wall; we must put our best foot forward and our nose to the grindstone!"
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ahinton
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« Reply #93 on: 17:42:37, 24-08-2007 »

Quote
I believe some aspects of high culture can still be redeemed.
Do they need to be? - by which I mean do you really mean "redeemed" or do you mean merely rescued from the pompous snobs and the Classic-FMmers?
If there is to be any future for high culture, or at least classical music, in a society where the majority of people can happily live without it, then yes it does. Not least because (as I continually point out) for its survival on any sort of even moderate scale, both in concert halls and educational institutions, it needs the consent of that wider population towards its funding. Orchestras, opera houses, chamber music series, recital series, new music festivals, etc., etc., could disappear in a flash if their funding was removed. Should those things be supported, or would the money be better spent on trying to give support and aid to those who might be the McCartney's of the future, or in general those who might produce a type of music that far more people want to hear? That question isn't so easy to answer, I think.
There's very little with which I disagree here. I see what you mean by your use of the term "redeemed" in this context and accept it. The only comment that I might make is that I'm not even sure that the vast majority of that "wider population" of which you write willingly sanctions that all-important funding of which you write; they do so mainly only through the taxes that they cannot avoid paying and a very few also do so by voluntary donation to relevant charitable organisations. I suspect that, if given the choice, most people would rather elect to have that part of the taxes that they cannot avoid paying diverted towards something other than the continued survival of "orchestras, opera houses, chamber music series, recital series, new music festivals, etc., etc.," - and I daresay the majority of licence payers would prefer that the part of their licence fees that fund BBC Radio 3 be diverted elsewhere, too, for that matter - a deeply depressing thought, but probably not far off the mark. That said, I have also heard it conjectured that there is a certain kind of ironic absurdity in taxpers' money funding such things while at the same time the Treasury gives tax relief to corporations in respect of their charitable contributions towards the very same kinds of funding, but I suppose that's another topic. Speaking personally, the kinds of thing you mention are, as you imply, always in such desperate need of funding that I've long since had no scruples about where that money comes from as long as it comes.

Best,

Alistair
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ahinton
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« Reply #94 on: 17:48:04, 24-08-2007 »

Quote
there are surely other things for which it is worth spending time in Britain, for all its faults

Perhaps there may have been twenty years ago, but this apparent detour actually brings us back to what Ian's asking in the message above...  about what Britain's priorities are in the sphere of public spending on "non-critical" services?  I can't any longer find myself in sympathy with the present priorities, and have gone to where I feel more comfortable (along, I note with interest amid this week's news, 1/10 other Brits who are now residing outside the UK).  I don't say my current country of domicile has got the priorities "right", either... perhaps no country has, or perhaps it is all a matter of opinion. Nor am I interested in getting into a "bidding war" over this Smiley (I have friends in Norway who are quite happy with their lot, though).  All I say is that where I am at the moment suits me better, personally speaking. 
I do understand your view here and why you hold it - and I am by no means completely out of sympathy with it. I would add, however, that I would neither welcome nor expect a situation where the kind of funding of which Ian writes comes - and is henceforward expected to come - solely from "public" sources (i.e. via HM Treasury and/or local authority taxes in UK); the reason for this view is not at all political - it is simply because, as I mentioned in my response to Ian and have alluded to elsewhere in the past, every conceivable source of funding - public, corporate and private individual - must continually be explored and tapped as far as possible in order to keep afloat those things that we so value.

OK - so now back to Sir Elliott McCarterney (except that his would probably by choice be a flying stone rather than a standing one - and certainly nor a rolling one...)

Best,

Alistair
« Last Edit: 17:50:18, 24-08-2007 by ahinton » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #95 on: 18:07:48, 24-08-2007 »

there is a certain kind of ironic absurdity in taxpers' money funding such things while at the same time the Treasury gives tax relief to corporations in respect of their charitable contributions towards the very same kinds of funding, but I suppose that's another topic.

I'm not sure there's such an irony?  Surely there irony would truly be if what was given (or supported) with one hand were then grabbed back (in the form of taxing charitable donations made by corporations) with the other?   This is, of course, if one takes it as a given that funding will be a public/private mix for most Arts organisations,  which has been the pattern in the UK now for the past quarter-century at least.  (I don't say I approve it - I mention that it's the established pattern).

I personally believe that rather than being offended, Arts organisations ought to be rather flattered that the image of quality, artistic value, innovation and excellence they offer has a financial "value" which can be leveraged to the organisation's advantage if outside bodies wish to gain benefit by association?  It doesn't always work that way, of course.  (I was once asked if I would rewrite the libretto of Mozart's SCHAUSPIELDIREKTOR to allow for "a number of catwalk models who had come to the theatre seeking work, and would appear on the catwalk in latest fashions provided by the sponsor, to the accompaniment of EINE KLEINE NACHTMUSIK".  I'm afraid I told them where they could stick their catwalk, although there would have been a marvellous irony - considering the piece concerned - in agreeing to permit this outrageous shenanigan).

I very much agree with your suggestion that a mix of public and private money for the Arts is not only practicable but desirable. An entirely Government-funded system produced our dear chum Khrennikov, for example...  and the entire strata of cronyism that went along with it.  In point of fact one can see this very much now in the BBC - they had their wings clipped for suggesting that the WMD claim was "sexed-up", and ever since that time one has not heard so much as a peep out of Auntie by way of suggesting that British involvement in the warplans of President Dubya may not have been an entirely wise move.  The deaths of two British soldiers today were reported as "friendly fire", and one had to read quite deeply into the story to discover that it was - as one immediately suspected from the outside - American munition which had caused their death.   I am surprised no contemporary Khrennikov has surfaced to write a Glorious Hymn On The Ousting Of The Butcher Of Baghdad??

I realise that Ian will always disagree that the Soviet experience is a relevant experimental model for incepting identical public policy in Britain - he believes different outcomes will occur.  However, I am more sceptical, and I remain sadly convinced (viz my BBC example above, and thus my reason for quoting it) that identical circumstances will result in identical outcomes.  An entirely public-funded classical music structure in Britain will result in the work of a few cronies being funded, whilst others are thrown to the wolves.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ian Pace
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« Reply #96 on: 18:12:01, 24-08-2007 »

I would neither welcome nor expect a situation where the kind of funding of which Ian writes comes - and is henceforward expected to come - solely from "public" sources (i.e. via HM Treasury and/or local authority taxes in UK); the reason for this view is not at all political - it is simply because, as I mentioned in my response to Ian and have alluded to elsewhere in the past, every conceivable source of funding - public, corporate and private individual - must continually be explored and tapped as far as possible in order to keep afloat those things that we so value.
I'd be very surprised if there's a musical institution anywhere who is in the position of being forced to turn back those alternative sources of funding if they are offered them (unless they come with some questionable strings attached) by virtue of being in receipt of public money. The issue is of whether they should have to find it that way rather than being able to operate with the security of public money. And I'm sorry, but any question of how money raised through taxation is spent (or whether it is to be spent or raised through taxes at all), is in every sense of the word a political question.

Quote
OK - so now back to Sir Elliott McCarterney (except that his would probably by choice be a flying stone rather than a standing one - and certainly nor a rolling one...)
Well, the obvious question in this context is to do with how much public money, directly or indirectly, McCartney's 'classical' projects received, and why those would receive such support (for example by being played by publicly funded orchestras) when his other projects do not, presumably? Not least considering that the classical projects are most definitely commercial successes, albeit not on the level of Beatles hits or maybe some of his other work.

And to Reiner's point - in no sense do I advocate the thoroughly undemocratic and highly centralised Soviet model of anything.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #97 on: 18:14:21, 24-08-2007 »

I realise that Ian will always disagree that the Soviet experience is a relevant experimental model for incepting identical public policy in Britain - he believes different outcomes will occur.  However, I am more sceptical, and I remain sadly convinced (viz my BBC example above, and thus my reason for quoting it) that identical circumstances will result in identical outcomes.  An entirely public-funded classical music structure in Britain will result in the work of a few cronies being funded, whilst others are thrown to the wolves.
Is that any more the case in France, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Holland, Finland, etc. (all of which have much higher degrees of public funding than the UK) than it is here at present? I don't see any greater diversity of work being produced here than in various of those countries.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #98 on: 02:05:26, 25-08-2007 »

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tonybob
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« Reply #99 on: 09:13:50, 25-08-2007 »

i've just wiki'd paul mccartney, and discovered that he used to be in the beatles!
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George Garnett
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« Reply #100 on: 10:16:09, 25-08-2007 »

i've just wiki'd paul mccartney, and discovered that he used to be in the beatles!

So he was! A group of musicians who, with a little help from one or two friends (and why not), have greatly enriched my life. I might even dig out Revolver and have a little sob now for old time's sake. We don't get popular song writers that good very often and what a pleasure it is when we do.   
« Last Edit: 10:34:03, 25-08-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
oliver sudden
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« Reply #101 on: 13:00:10, 25-08-2007 »

Wasn't he the guy who wrote that great James Bond song?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #102 on: 13:14:25, 25-08-2007 »

Hang on, there's a great James Bond song?

In my book there are several but Live and Let Die is the only one of those that doesn't sound like a James Bond song. Nice rhythms too.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #103 on: 14:13:26, 25-08-2007 »

Hang on, there's a great James Bond song?

In my book there are several but Live and Let Die is the only one of those that doesn't sound like a James Bond song. Nice rhythms too.
What does a James Bond song sound like?  Roll Eyes
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #104 on: 14:32:35, 25-08-2007 »

For me it's a matter of soaring vocal lines and testosterone-laden big band writing à la Goldfinger or Diamonds are Forever or Thunderball. (Although I'm sure they don't necessarily have to be sung by Welshpersons.)
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