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oliver sudden
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« Reply #105 on: 19:22:20, 07-08-2007 » |
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...yes, fine, but I don't think I presented my view of it above as anything other than my own taste in the matter, and the size of the string section doesn't necessarily determine the fatness or leanness of the sound - when Abbado conducted the same orchestra Karajan had just been conducting, suddenly everything was crystal clear again.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #106 on: 19:26:40, 07-08-2007 » |
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...yes, fine, but I don't think I presented my view of it above as anything other than my own taste in the matter, Well, I was mostly referring to Alistair's claims in that respect, but wasn't sure what you meant by saying Brahms's scoring was 'pretty clear' - do you mean the sound or the intentions are clear? and the size of the string section doesn't necessarily determine the fatness or leanness of the sound - when Abbado conducted the same orchestra Karajan had just been conducting, suddenly everything was crystal clear again. Of course, but there were significant differences in the fatness/leanness of the sound in all senses in Brahms's time as well. And it's not entirely clear that he necessarily preferred a lean sound over a fat one. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #107 on: 22:27:49, 07-08-2007 » |
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I am very wary when people make quite exalted claims about certain performing traditions being at odds with the composer's intentions ('misleading listeners as to how that music is meant to sound', for example) without having investigated the matter historically.
In principle, I agree that we should all be wary of this. The point that I was seeking to make, however (which was certianly not of "exalted" intent and which perhaps I also failed to make with a textual clarity on a par with the textural clarity that I find in Brahms) is that there remains a danger that some people can get the wrong end of a certain composer's stick and then run with it, thereby starting to perpetuate something that doesn't necessarily end up according the music its due favours of sympathetic representation (one has in such a context only to look back and recall the over-sentimentalised Rakhmaninov and the "drawing-room-languishing Chopin" of which someone once wrote to get an idea of how this can risk taking hold); rather than specifically "claiming" that this is what has happened to Brahms, I endeavoured to point out these possible problems in the context of wondering why the very idea of "greys and browns" has ever been thought by anyone to be in any way synonymous with what I understand of Brahms's intentions. Perhaps it's just me, but the first and fourth symphonies and the piano works from those early sonatas to the collections of "miniatures" (hardly!) from his last years alone just seem to me to be the very antithesis of anything that might make one think about those more dull and boring of colours. Best, Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #108 on: 22:39:05, 07-08-2007 » |
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and the size of the string section doesn't necessarily determine the fatness or leanness of the sound - when Abbado conducted the same orchestra Karajan had just been conducting, suddenly everything was crystal clear again. Of course, but there were significant differences in the fatness/leanness of the sound in all senses in Brahms's time as well. And it's not entirely clear that he necessarily preferred a lean sound over a fat one. Indeed - but "fat" or "lean", I find it hard to imagine that Brahms would ideally have wanted anything that might in any way have risked compromising his instinctive clarity of expression and presentation. You, Ian, have written somewhere about the necessary physical awkwardness (not your exact word, I know, but I cannot immediately find the post concerned) of certain examples in Brahms's piano writing yet, whilst I know exactly what it is that you are talking about in principle (in the sense that the way Brahms presented ideas to the pianist set down its own vitally necessary challenges), I have always found that Brahms "feels" under the fingers just as he wants to sound and that, just because of this, there is no real inherent awkwardness - the music itself in a way resembles what it feels like to play it. Now I do realise only too well that this sounds abit like the ultimate in arrogance, since I am not even a pianist(!) but, years ago, I did spend a lot of time trying to wrap my hopelessly inadequate fingers around the two concertos, the piano parts in the chamber works and the solo piano music for the purpose of figuring out what was going on and my ideas (such as they ever were) about what feels to me to be the sheer "rightness" of Brahms's piano writing happened to derive largely from that experience (warts and all). Best, Alistair |
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thompson1780
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« Reply #109 on: 23:25:55, 07-08-2007 » |
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Ollie commented on not liking the 'brown' school of Brahms performance on that other thread...... Could someone please tell me what 'brown' school is. I have a feeling it's actually my bag. Does it mean not HIP? Tommo |
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #110 on: 23:32:32, 07-08-2007 » |
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Does it have to do with brown-shirts? I hope not.
My guess is it means lacking in clarity of texture, or as the Germans might say, "klar wie Kloßbrühe" -- clear as dumpling soup.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #111 on: 23:51:25, 07-08-2007 » |
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It's nothing at all to do with HIPness. But everything to do with muddiness of dumplings. Er, texture.
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thompson1780
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« Reply #112 on: 07:48:53, 08-08-2007 » |
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Ah, thanks Ollie. Brown is not me, then (although I guess what I call Brown and what you call Brown could be different, depending on where we each draw the line of clarity/what we count as dumplings.)
I'll have think about what 'makes' a Brahms performnce for me. (I think it has something to do with long lines and a driving pulse.)
Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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George Garnett
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« Reply #113 on: 10:19:19, 08-08-2007 » |
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I have the impression I know exactly what Ollie means by 'brown' performances of Brahms. But I'll never know of course whether I really do. Non-brown Brahms can appear in the most surprising places. The single most thrilling Brahms performance I've ever heard was an LSO/Karl Bohm Symphony No 2 in the early 1980s sometime. Wonderful clarity and drive. (He made it sound like Schubert 9 in places  ). I've always had a bit of a soft spot for No 2 ever since even if it doesn't seem to be rated quite as highly as the other three (?). |
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martle
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« Reply #114 on: 10:45:07, 08-08-2007 » |
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I've always had a bit of a soft spot for No 2 ever since even if it doesn't seem to be rated quite as highly as the other three (?).
Me too, George. But I believe word on the street, down wid da kidz, is that no. 1 is the more poo-pooed of the four; although whether that's merely because of it's supposed over-indebtedness to Beethoven I'm not sure. It's one of the pieces I overdosed on as a teenager in any case, and still love it. Now why, despite all its glories and compositional elan, can I not get along with no. 4? That passacaglia doesn't quite do it for me (nice idea and all that, but...), and as for the triangle in the scherzo... aaaargh, to paraphrase soundwave.  |
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Green. Always green.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #115 on: 11:06:39, 08-08-2007 » |
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and as for the triangle in the scherzo... aaaargh, to paraphrase soundwave. Give the man a chance - it's one of only three works in which he ever used percussion other than timpani (the others being the Academic Festival Overture and the orchestral version of several of the Hungarian Dances). |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #116 on: 11:07:37, 08-08-2007 » |
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martle - I've absolutely no idea why no. 4 might not do it for you - it turns my crank damn hard. Damn shame though. Have we ruled out the possibility that it might be the performances you have ready access to? (Might they be too, well, brown?) If so we'll just have to put it down to taste.
To me no. 1 is certainly the least smooth-running of the four; you can feel the gears changing in the finale quite a bit for example. Although that obviously doesn't make it uninteresting - to an extent the reverse.
I wonder if it's Brahms's use of a relatively old-fashioned language that makes his music hard to pin down sometimes? As in: hard to know whether to approach it from the perspective of his contemporaries like Bruckner (9 years younger!) or his models like Beethoven (and then whose Beethoven?). I think that can certainly skew the overall form in a way that deeply changes the balance of a piece - if for example the introduction to the first symphony or the slow movements of any of them are taken too monumentally then FOR ME that throws the balance to the point where the work as a whole becomes unsatisfying.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #117 on: 11:16:49, 08-08-2007 » |
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martle - I've absolutely no idea why no. 4 might not do it for you - it turns my crank damn hard. Damn shame though. Have we ruled out the possibility that it might be the performances you have ready access to? (Might they be too, well, brown?) If so we'll just have to put it down to taste.
To me no. 1 is certainly the least smooth-running of the four; you can feel the gears changing in the finale quite a bit for example. Although that obviously doesn't make it uninteresting - to an extent the reverse.
I wonder if it's Brahms's use of a relatively old-fashioned language that makes his music hard to pin down sometimes? Oooooooooooooooooooooo The focus of my attention amongst the symphonies keeps shifting - I find Nos. 2 and 4 the most consistent, and used to think 2 was really the deepest, but at the moment I'm quite infatuated by No. 3, which I used to have mixed feelings about. Does anyone know what I mean when I say that I find the third movement quite unbelievably tragic? No. 1 is hard to fault, but it somehow seems just a bit 'too hard-worked over' at times. The fluency of No. 2 is in great contrast. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #118 on: 11:23:56, 08-08-2007 » |
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Talking of Brahms' use of percussion, every first and every last movement of his symphonies ends with a drum roll. (At the end of the 3rd, there's a drum roll but the woodwind and brass hold the note after the timps have finished.) I like the way he uses the timps at the beginning of the 1st, though. It seems to me that that might have been quite original at the time.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #119 on: 11:32:43, 08-08-2007 » |
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Now why, despite all its glories and compositional elan, can I not get along with no. 4? That passacaglia doesn't quite do it for me (nice idea and all that, but...), and as for the triangle in the scherzo... aaaargh, to paraphrase soundwave. Performing the passacaglia is particularly challenging, getting just the right balance between flexibility and drive. Do you not find the flute solo, or the trombone choral, to be extremely striking and moving moments, or feel that hurtling energy in the third section where the strings start their driving quavers? The fourth was actually my set work when I did music at A-Level, I found that movement decimating then, and decimating now. As long as it's performed the way I like....  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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