|
trained-pianist
|
 |
« Reply #75 on: 06:27:12, 02-06-2007 » |
|
I have thought about this issue (emotions verses intellectual reasoning.
Even up to now I don't know how to combine emotionality with reflective outlook. Often when I go with my emotions only I find myself either at a dead end or sort of empty (when emotions are gone).
I am beginning to understand that there is a combination of both and I am beginning to respect people who combine their heart with their head.
My only regret that it is coming to me too late in life.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Chafing Dish
Guest
|
|
« Reply #76 on: 15:47:01, 02-06-2007 » |
|
Don't feel bad, t_p. Most people do not strive for any balance at all and simply live according to their most shallow instincts. Even contemplating your emotional/intellectual pseudo-divide at all is an ennobling activity, and it can be fruitful at any age. (Sorry if that sounds pompous.)
Anyway, I don't think this has anything to do with Brahms anymore; I think the matter of his emotional attitude is much more nuanced than a one-sided look at Brahms epigrams and anecdotes might suggest. In that sense I am 100% (approximately) behind A. Ross's view. One has to look at all aspects of Brahms's life to get an impression of his inner workings, and even then it doesn't necessarily yield dependable results, nor in fact reliable clues as to how his music MUST be interpreted. That doesn't mean it isn't an interesting discussion -- just that I'm pessimistic about reaching some kind of agreement. He's dead after all, and we don't live in 19th century Vienna.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #77 on: 18:27:41, 02-06-2007 » |
|
Anyway, I don't think this has anything to do with Brahms anymore; I think the matter of his emotional attitude is much more nuanced than a one-sided look at Brahms epigrams and anecdotes might suggest. In that sense I am 100% (approximately) behind A. Ross's view. One has to look at all aspects of Brahms's life to get an impression of his inner workings, and even then it doesn't necessarily yield dependable results, nor in fact reliable clues as to how his music MUST be interpreted. Life and art are not identical, as implied by the above. That doesn't mean it isn't an interesting discussion -- just that I'm pessimistic about reaching some kind of agreement. He's dead after all, and we don't live in 19th century Vienna. Brahms is a notoriously enigmatic personality, very guarded (his voluminous correspondence does not give a great deal away easily) and very aware of what biographers might conjure up after his death. Anyhow, for those in tonight, I will break one of my rules and give a plug for a concert (well for a broadcast of a concert) - go to http://www.wdr.de/radio/wdr3/ for 20:00 German time (19:00 in the UK) if you'd like to hear a live broadcast of Brahms Ein Deutsches Requiem, in the version with two pianos and timps by Heinrich Poos, with the WDR Choir, conducted by Rupert Huber, soloists Simone Nold and Kay Stiefermann, and myself and Mark Knoop on two 19th-century pianos (Erard and Collard). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
Chafing Dish
Guest
|
|
« Reply #78 on: 22:02:33, 02-06-2007 » |
|
Life and art are not identical, as implied by the above.
Apologies: I don't know how I implied that -- I certainly didn't mean to. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
trained-pianist
|
|
« Reply #79 on: 22:08:45, 02-06-2007 » |
|
After this discussion I feel closer to Brahms, I feel that I understand him better.
He is still enigmatic person, but he is much more human now in my mind.
He combines emotional and intellectual parts of his being in his music, he is passionate and even intuitive person, but there is another part of his being that is progmatic and intellectual.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Daniel
|
|
« Reply #80 on: 00:42:03, 03-06-2007 » |
|
Anyhow, for those in tonight, I will break one of my rules and give a plug for a concert
Personally I am always quite happy when people mention these things, as often the opportunity to listen to them would otherwise pass me by. I'd never heard this arrangement of Ein Deutsches Requiem before and I enjoyed the clarity it brought to the music very much. The choral counterpoint seemed to come out so clearly set against the 2 piano/timps accompaniment - and what a presence the timps have in the proceedings! Anyway thanks for pointing it out - and well done, I thought it was a very engaging and exciting performance. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #81 on: 00:45:52, 03-06-2007 » |
|
Anyhow, for those in tonight, I will break one of my rules and give a plug for a concert
Personally I am always quite happy when people mention these things, as often the opportunity to listen to them would otherwise pass me by. I'd never heard this arrangement of Ein Deutsches Requiem before and I enjoyed the clarity it brought to the music very much. The choral counterpoint seemed to come out so clearly set against the 2 piano/timps accompaniment - and what a presence the timps have in the proceedings! Anyway thanks for pointing it out - and well done, I thought it was a very engaging and exciting performance. Glad you enjoyed it, it was a nice evening (as was yesterday, when we did it in Essen, in a very different venue). Quite a bit of what you are referring to comes from the amazing efforts of the conductor with the chorus - do check out Rupert's recordings of choral works of Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Schoenberg, Nono, Feldman if you get a chance! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
Sydney Grew
Guest
|
|
« Reply #82 on: 01:40:34, 03-06-2007 » |
|
. . . Brahms Ein Deutsches Requiem, in the version with two pianos and timps by Heinrich Poos . . . Oh dear! This does sound as though it was a) rather annoying for the audience and b) 5 per centum Brahms and 95 per centum Poos. In other words, a travesty - something from the same school as those nineteenth-century operas staged in modern dress. At bottom the problem here is the catachrestical concept of "interpretation." We wish performers would strive not to interpret but to be faithful. We go out to hear the composer's Art and the performers are simply his or better its servants. The old-fashioned nineteenth-century notion of interpretation was already passé by 1908! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Colin Holter
|
|
« Reply #83 on: 02:38:08, 03-06-2007 » |
|
I certainly hope that performers of my music will render it as sanitarily and with as little personality as possible.
Not. Half of what I go to concerts for is interpretation–the grimier the fingerprints (as long as they're well-considered and -researched), the better. Interpretation is what makes a piece of music a replica of a nonexistent original, to paraphrase Adorno. This is one reason why listening to tape music in a concert hall sucks.
Brahms' F minor quintet is incredible, but if a reviewer accuses you of playing it "faithfully," you've just been d***ed with faint praise.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 02:49:28, 03-06-2007 by Colin Holter »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #84 on: 09:01:58, 03-06-2007 » |
|
. . . Brahms Ein Deutsches Requiem, in the version with two pianos and timps by Heinrich Poos . . . Oh dear! This does sound as though it was a) rather annoying for the audience and b) 5 per centum Brahms and 95 per centum Poos. In other words, a travesty - something from the same school as those nineteenth-century operas staged in modern dress. Brahms made a version of his own of the work with two pianos instead of the orchestra, a recording of which can be found here. This version is very similar to that, only with the timps added. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
trained-pianist
|
|
« Reply #85 on: 09:24:09, 03-06-2007 » |
|
Thanks Ian, It is on my wish list now.
But the issue of interpretation is an interesting one for me. On one hand I do like different enterpretation, on the other I don't like people to put something into the music that is not there.
When I played with a good German trained viola player (he is Irish, but studied there), we often discussed this problem. There are many musicians that put something in music that is artificial. Also many make facial expressions during their performances to die for.
On one hand one should be relaxed and not self conscious. On the other there is a theatrical play on the part of performenrs.
One can have an interpretation when one knows the music well and one found something new in this music, not impose one's own ideas into music that were not there.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #86 on: 09:33:45, 03-06-2007 » |
|
Thanks Ian, It is on my wish list now.
But the issue of interpretation is an interesting one for me. On one hand I do like different enterpretation, on the other I don't like people to put something into the music that is not there.
When I played with a good German trained viola player (he is Irish, but studied there), we often discussed this problem. There are many musicians that put something in music that is artificial. Also many make facial expressions during their performances to die for.
On one hand one should be relaxed and not self conscious. On the other there is a theatrical play on the part of performenrs.
One can have an interpretation when one knows the music well and one found something new in this music, not impose one's own ideas into music that were not there.
But who determines whether something is 'there' or not in the music? Isn't interpretation quite fundamentally a process of articulating one's own view of what is 'there'? 100% with you on many facial expressions, though, especially with those performers who are struck by an apparition of the Deity upon the ceiling (when a performer does that, the audience should all also tilt their heads upwards to have a look)...  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
trained-pianist
|
|
« Reply #87 on: 09:42:02, 03-06-2007 » |
|
I had many problems with above mentioned viola player.
He had philosophy that I tried to describe in my previous post. But when we performed he was so stiff if not to say cold.
He played Bach and some other composers well, but could not play Romantic repertoire at all.
I think that I mean some performers also thrush about. Some times one wonders how they don't fall from the bench or if they hold their instruments how they don't drop them.
I don't know if all these thrushing is part of their interpretation or is it done for the benefit of the audience as an explanation of what is going on in the piece (in case they did not get it).
I don't know how I look during my performance (I prefer not to think), but I wish not to look like that.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
marbleflugel
|
|
« Reply #88 on: 10:10:27, 03-06-2007 » |
|
Is Heinrich Poos by any chance related to (as suggested by musicologist Terry Gilliam)Conrad Poohs and his dancing teeth?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'...A celebrity is someone who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'
Arnold Brown
|
|
|
|
Sydney Grew
Guest
|
|
« Reply #89 on: 12:46:38, 03-06-2007 » |
|
Brahms made a version of his own of the work with two pianos instead of the orchestra . . . This version is very similar to that, only with the timps added. Yes it appears we may have done something of an injustice to the good Poos. Aware that Brahms made many arrangements of the kind, we looked in Grove and Neunzig but found nothing. There are certainly timpani accompanying the Burial Song opus 13, but that is rather a different matter. So Poos's contribution was confined to a couple of gratuitous kettle-drums, was it? We suppose he could have copied the most effective timpani parts (the quiet passages) almost directly from the orchestral score. On the wider question of Brahms's character, Grove has a few lines which caught our eye about the androgynous nature of his person and his works: "Brahms as a youth in Hamburg was shy and reserved, thoughtful and self-effacing; but he was also candid and already very much his own person. Slender, with delicate features, long fair hair, radiant blue eyes and a high voice, he projected a somewhat androgynous image. One also discerns a dual nature in his early works: sensitive settings of poems about the problems of young maidens co-exist with highly energetic instrumental allegros and scherzos suggestive of the athletic prowess of the teenage boy."And here is our favourite photograph of him; he looks so intense and intelligent, does not he? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
