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Author Topic: The Brahms debate  (Read 4972 times)
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #60 on: 19:27:06, 12-05-2007 »

The following Frescobaldi pieces were in Brahms's handwritten collection (via Revue Musicologique accessed through JSTOR):

the Partite sopra l'Aria detta la Romanesca (just the first part)
a Toccata from Fiori Musicali (one of those labelled alla Levatione - but not sure which one)
the Toccata #12 (from the first Book of Toccatas, I assume, since the 2nd book only contains 11)
and the long-toothed Aria detta la Frescobaldi [sic]

Anyway, I intend to play through these pieces over and over and try to pretend I am [listening to] Brahms.
This is being a bit monologue-ish, but... there is no Toccata from Fiori Musicali, but rather the

Toccata Quarta per l'organo da sonarsi alla Levatione from Toccatas vol II (1637)
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #61 on: 08:13:54, 30-05-2007 »

Today on Breakfast "show" they played Brahms Hungarian Dances.
How come Brahms let himself go in dances, but hardly every again.
He could do it, but he was very analytical often in his music. I think it is his choice.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #62 on: 09:00:21, 30-05-2007 »

Brahms's personal maxim: Ruhig in der Freude und ruhig in Schmerz und Kummer ist der schöne, wahrhafte Mensch.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
trained-pianist
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« Reply #63 on: 09:10:27, 30-05-2007 »

Ian,
What is it in English please. I don't know German that well. I don't want to write to my mommy and ask my new dad. I sort of understand, but still can not put it together coherently.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #64 on: 09:37:46, 30-05-2007 »

Very roughly, it translates as 'The most admirable and genuine man is calm in both his joy and his sorrow and grief.' Brahms also said (in the same letter to Clara Schumann of 1857, the year after Robert's death) 'Leidenschaften müssen bald vergehen, oder man muss sie vertreiben', which means 'Passions must quickly pass away, or else one must drive them out'.
« Last Edit: 09:41:37, 30-05-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #65 on: 09:53:11, 30-05-2007 »

Yeeesss (in Jeremy Paxman voice)....

That all kind of sums up the problem I have with Brahms.
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #66 on: 10:05:23, 30-05-2007 »

Are you thinking turgid, suet pudding Richard? Its so easy to do Brahms soporifically, but I wonder if the inner game isnt a pitch battle with earthy stuff that is just under the surface,rendered metaphysically. This is a very
personal view, and I'm happy to be gainsaid on this, but the better-not instinct re: Clara's potential affections all but defines his modus operandus. I think this 'grace under pressure' in Hemigway's terms became a creative archetype-I hear it in Tippett amongst others. It transcends yet ennobles the personal origin of the emotion to
broader considerations, and in so doing gets the best out of whole tilt of romanticism.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #67 on: 10:17:36, 30-05-2007 »

Wonder what any of you make of this quote, from another letter to Clara the following year (I don't have the original German version with me at the moment)?

Art is a republic. you should accept this principle much more wholeheartedly than you do. You are much too aristocratic. . .. Do not confer a higher rank upon any artist, and do not expect the minor ones to look up to him as something higher, as consul. His ability will make him a beloved and respected citizen of this republic, but no consul or emperor.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #68 on: 10:24:14, 30-05-2007 »

Are you thinking turgid, suet pudding Richard?
Not really, I was thinking more of emotional constipation, a tendency to keep (musical) things in check. (Tippett in comparison lets it all hang out - think of The Knot Garden for example.) I think that's why the German Requiem is my favourite work of Brahms - here, the sense of (mostly) calm resignation which is at the centre of the piece is so to speak in perfect harmony with its composer's habitual emotional reticence.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #69 on: 10:26:09, 30-05-2007 »

emotional constipation, a tendency to keep (musical) things in check
I know we don't always like the author of this article, but it may be of interest:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2004/04/brahms_1.html
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #70 on: 10:29:23, 30-05-2007 »

Well, I don't find Brahms at all emotionally reticent; however, as a personality he was distrustful of fleeting impulse (let alone idle sentiment), or that which seems somehow irrationally motivated (in this sense he was hugely different in temperament from Berlioz, Schumann or Liszt, say). The emotional content is no less pronounced, just that it tends to operate in a deeper and more thoroughgoing manner. Could anyone tell me that, say, the Violin Concerto is anything other than a deeply heartfelt work?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #71 on: 10:47:52, 30-05-2007 »

emotional constipation, a tendency to keep (musical) things in check
I know we don't always like the author of this article, but it may be of interest:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2004/04/brahms_1.html
That's quite an interesting article and makes a good case; on reading it I find myself becoming gradually convinced, but then on thinking of the music itself I come up against the usual brick wall, not without its chinks of light, to be sure (especially where the chamber music is concerned) but nevertheless blank and forbidding, however "deeply heartfelt".
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increpatio
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« Reply #72 on: 19:42:37, 30-05-2007 »

Horowitz once said something very closely along the lines of "Music is controlled emotion", I think.  (I have some Brahms on order from Amazon; I might have something more substantial to say here if it ever arrives Smiley ).
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #73 on: 20:51:25, 30-05-2007 »

I understand Richard's point. I think that the person should be true to himself. I don't like people controlling themselves. Music is a sincere and uncensured expression of one's deep inner feelings.
On the other hand if one goes with emotions only, then one is pulled in all different directions like a ship in a storm.
I gradually came to understand and like Brahms, but I am only talking about his piano and chamber music because I don't know his symphonies well enough or deep enough.
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calum da jazbo
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« Reply #74 on: 00:44:30, 02-06-2007 »

if i may be so bold; i read Brahms as indicating that INTENSITY is problematic, whether anguish or ecstasy, in one's personal life. my own professional and personal experiences would support this indication. are we sure he intended it as an aesthetic priciple, as opposed to a pragmatic stance to life?
Brahms may also be someone who had to THINK deeply to know what he truly FELT; others may have to FEEL more or less strongly before they can start to know what to think. i have often observed these opposites in clients and colleagues. i find Brahms music deeply passionate and reflective and treasure this combination, the sense of feeling and awareness. listening to scriabin piano sonata 7 on r3 yesterday, it just sounded utter emotional and metaphysical tosh, lacking movement but not gesture of monstrous proportions. now that was costive, painfully so, but clearly scriabin had to feel to think, and not much of the latter in my view.
you may gather that i think to know my feelings, not feel to find my thoughts. how one listens, and learns to listen, is driven by such differences in the application of our minds; would this be the case for the authors of the differing views of Brahms?
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