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oliver sudden
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« Reply #3525 on: 21:44:57, 11-09-2008 » |
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Am I right in thinking that 25 Kärwa Melodien just won't work if you multitrack two clarinets...?
I'm thinking the same - seems rather improbable that the difference tones would come out and they're kind of the point. Indeed some of them are hard enough to get to work ā deux... |
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #3526 on: 21:47:21, 11-09-2008 » |
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Am I right in thinking that 25 Kärwa Melodien just won't work if you multitrack two clarinets...?
I'm thinking the same - seems rather improbable that the difference tones would come out and they're kind of the point. Indeed some of them are hard enough to get to work ā deux... They certainly don't come out of my speakers. I'm sure you could simulate it acoustically (which the Heatons don't appear to have done on this recording) but why would you? Is there another recording of this piece done 'authentically'? |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #3527 on: 21:55:54, 11-09-2008 » |
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I wouldn't know the first thing about simulating it. (Shush, martle.) To be honest I don't remember how it works on that (or any) recording - I only know them from my side of the music stand and none too well even from there, I'm afraid. Sorry...
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3528 on: 22:03:27, 11-09-2008 » |
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I've been meaning to get this for ages but I decided to buy a load of Zimmermann the other day.
Am I right in thinking that 25 Kärwa Melodien just won't work if you multitrack two clarinets...?
Gosh! that's only the second copy I've ever seen of that CD. (I have the other one.) There's a recording of the Kärwa Melodien on the 3LP set of the complete Lokale Musik. (Which I also have.) I don't think the effect really works at all to speak of in a recording, and it's pretty touch-and-go live as well as I remember from, er, gosh, 24 years ago. But I'm sure you knew that....
I thought everyone did! <smugbarstewardlook> |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3529 on: 22:06:14, 11-09-2008 » |
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as mentioned before, Storgårds disregards the composer's direction for the last half of the Sacra completely anyway, so even for those of us who are besotted with it, it's a disappointing experience Yes but yes but yes but it's Panufnik's own recording I was listening to. I shall press on though. Sfere I don't actually have, just the EMI CD with the leafy cross on the front. |
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #3530 on: 22:10:37, 11-09-2008 » |
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I don't think the effect really works at all to speak of in a recording, and it's pretty touch-and-go live as well as I remember from, er, gosh, 24 years ago.
In my experience, difference tones on two clarinets work most effectively in small rooms with low ceilings (like my clarinet teacher's living room for example). Because it's a psychoacoustic (it is, isn't it?) effect, I just don't see how you could possibly cause it on a recording. [edit to include a memory of my mother with her fingers firmly in her ears while my teacher and I played the Poulenc Sonata for Two Clarinets  ] |
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« Last Edit: 22:14:21, 11-09-2008 by harmonyharmony »
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #3531 on: 22:13:56, 11-09-2008 » |
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I don't think the effect really works at all to speak of in a recording, and it's pretty touch-and-go live as well as I remember from, er, gosh, 24 years ago.
In my experience, difference tones on two clarinets work most effectively in small rooms with low ceilings (like my clarinet teacher's living room for example). Because it's a psychoacoustic (it is, isn't it?) effect, I just don't see how you could possibly cause it on a recording. Is it really only that? Are they not audible in a recording of that Ligeti wind quintet thing? I shall have to investigate. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3532 on: 22:15:33, 11-09-2008 » |
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As for these JC Bach piano concertos, they are very nice except that there are two copies of disc 2 in the box and none of disc 5. Here we go. This kind of thing really gets on my nerves.
Now spinning however is Gielen's Mahler 5. I can't remember ever hearing a better one all round, though it isn't my favourite Mahler symphony and I don't have so many recordings of it, half a dozen at most. Actually Gielen is getting me a lot more interested in it than I've mostly been in the past. That surely is a good sign.
I don't think there's any physical reason why those difference tones would be impossible to record and play back (the effect can be generated by sine tones after all), it's just a phenomenon which demonstrates that recording/reproduction technology has its limitations.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #3533 on: 22:18:32, 11-09-2008 » |
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Ah, right, r.
Perhaps you'd better give the Rustica a wide berth, then (though again you might enjoy the way the orchestra is disposed, with two equal string orchestras flanking a central group of flute and trumpet with pairs of oboes, bassoons and horns). Perhaps too rustic-bucolic for your tastes, I fear.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3534 on: 22:21:51, 11-09-2008 » |
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My word, that's quite a portamento leading back to the reprise in the Adagietto.
No, Ron, I shall persevere with Panufnik until I appreciate it better. As I said, I find his formal ideas very interesting indeed.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #3535 on: 22:23:35, 11-09-2008 » |
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I don't think the effect really works at all to speak of in a recording, and it's pretty touch-and-go live as well as I remember from, er, gosh, 24 years ago.
In my experience, difference tones on two clarinets work most effectively in small rooms with low ceilings (like my clarinet teacher's living room for example). Because it's a psychoacoustic (it is, isn't it?) effect, I just don't see how you could possibly cause it on a recording. Is it really only that? Are they not audible in a recording of that Ligeti wind quintet thing? I shall have to investigate. Oh yes. They very much are. (Audible in a recording of that Ligeti wind quintet thing, I mean. The 9th of his 10 pieces for wind quintet. I call as evidence the Wiener Bläsersolisten recording on DG.) |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #3536 on: 22:38:04, 11-09-2008 » |
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My word, that's quite a portamento leading back to the reprise in the Adagietto.
No, Ron, I shall persevere with Panufnik until I appreciate it better. As I said, I find his formal ideas very interesting indeed.
The Sfere will intrigue even more: sadly this note comes without the diagrams that adorned the original LP sleeve: Scoring
2.picc.2.2.bcl.2.dbn-1.1.1.1-perc(3):12unpitched membrane drums of 4 different sizes-pft-strings
Composer's Notes
Sinfonia di Sfere (Symphony of Spheres) - my fifth symphony - is an abstract work, a musical structure influenced by the beauty and mystery of geometry. The title has no connection with the philosophy of Pythagoras ("music of the spheres"), nor with astrology (unlike the planets which inspired Gustav Holst).
In this work, the concept of spheres gave me a double impetus: first and most essential, spheres of contemplative thoughts and emotions; and the secondary aspect, a group of spheres as a geometric figure which acts as a framework enclosing meticulously organised musical material. I can describe this musical material also in terms of spheres: sphere of harmony - based on two chords, 9 minor thirds + 2 major seconds, and 8 major thirds + 3 minor thirds, both constructed symetrically; sphere of rhythm - 4 units of 6 notes each; sphere of dynamics - alternating use of crescendi and diminuendi arranged symmetrically; sphere of tempo - the areas of slow tempi and fast tempi each graduated; and sphere of general
structure - modified sonata form.
In the sphere of orchestral sound, the four brass instruments - trumpet, horn, trombone and tuba, are mainly treated soloisticaily. Even more prominent are the 12 untuned drums, 4 to each player. (I chose drums for their almost magical, primordial properties; being used since pre-history as a means of communication - transmitting messages, arousing emotions, etc.) The three drummers are widely separated on the platform, in a triangle: left front, centre back, and right front. Their sound constantly orbits the orchestra - alternately clockwise and anti-clockwise, and is often shadowed by the piano.
The framework of this symphony could be depicted by a geometric figure comprising the three spheres, each containing a smaller, concentric sphere. This diagram shows my idea of the listener's perception as a circular disc journeying up from nothingness through the first, lower hemisphere of Sphere I, through Sphere II - still partly influenced by Sphere I - continuing its ascent through the rest of the second, upper hemisphere of Sphere I, progressing, with expanding perception, through all the other Spheres till the end of the symphony. Thus I hope the listener might perhaps experience a kind of ascent into spheres of contemplative thoughts and feelings.
Andrzej Panufnik
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #3537 on: 22:39:42, 11-09-2008 » |
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With headphones they are more audible but not a lot.
If I see our technical guys tomorrow I'll ask them about this.
Are they hard to play Ollie?
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3538 on: 22:41:10, 11-09-2008 » |
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the diagrams that adorned the original LP sleeve Yes, I vaguely remember what they looked like. That was a Decca Headline LP wasn't it? Must have been one of the very few I didn't have. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3539 on: 22:46:28, 11-09-2008 » |
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Oh yes. They very much are.
(Audible in a recording of that Ligeti wind quintet thing, I mean. The 9th of his 10 pieces for wind quintet. I call as evidence the Wiener Bläsersolisten recording on DG.)
I think it works less well on two clarinets though. Maybe this is something to do with the instrument's spectrum, in which (IIRC) the fundamental frequency is relatively weak. But recording technique is still a factor. The three piccolos at the beginning of the third part of Vanity generate some pretty extreme ones in the concert hall (as, indeed, was the intention) but you don't really hear them on the CD. |
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