Antheil
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« Reply #45 on: 19:53:18, 30-11-2007 » |
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Well Ron, if you publish it, I'll buy it! Just off to eat now and of course I will not mention that famous Welsh insult which begins with twill and ends in sais
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #46 on: 19:53:40, 30-11-2007 » |
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I don't think accent is identity at all - it would be quite sad to have no other identity than that, wouldn't it? - and I also don't see why you should be proud of where you come from. It's an accident, after all, not an achievement. I'd be quite happy if everyone spoke RP. Sorry! Ah, Ron - Welsh meaning "foreign", as in "walnut" .
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #47 on: 19:57:27, 30-11-2007 » |
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I don't think accent is identity at all - it would be quite sad to have no other identity than that, wouldn't it? - and I also don't see why you should be proud of where you come from. It's an accident, after all, not an achievement. I'd be quite happy if everyone spoke RP. Sorry! Ah, Ron - Welsh meaning "foreign", as in "walnut" . Totally agree with you, Mary. Accent is the ultimate repository of class prejudice. Wage war on 'regionalism', so that everyone speaks RP and it would be one of the biggest blows against the class system that could be made. Besides, most UK regional accents are hideously ugly and unpleasant to listen to.
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #48 on: 19:59:04, 30-11-2007 » |
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Besides, most UK regional accents are hideously ugly and unpleasant to listen to.
Does that include yours, SK?
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MabelJane
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« Reply #49 on: 22:02:59, 30-11-2007 » |
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I am always amazed at the difference in Welsh accents throughout the region, from the nasal long 'A' of Newportians and Cardiffians, the sing-song voice of the Valleys and to me, the most difficult, is the gutteral accent of North Walians.
I remember, when I was a child, my uncle explaining to me why his children did not have a very sing-song Welsh accent when they spoke English. As they spoke only Welsh at home and at school (my uncle and aunt were involved with establishing one of the first Welsh-speaking schools), they learned English mainly from English people (for example our grandparents lived next-door to them for long periods) and heard English spoken by English people on TV. As they' grew older, I think my cousins' Welsh accent became stronger, probably as they mixed more with other children speaking English to them. Being used to the accents of South Wales, I found the North Wales accent quite strange until I became used to it. Besides, most UK regional accents are hideously ugly and unpleasant to listen to.
How dull it would be if we all sounded the same! In brief; the dampness, speed of wind, quality of air and many other aspects of everyday life can have an effect on how people hold their heads and mouths: in places where this pattern becomes locked into the muscle memory it's very difficult to lose the sounds.
Very interesting theory, Ron. It does explain a lot. But there must be an in-built tendency too for someone to be able to adopt an accent. I was at school with a friend who had a stronger South London accent than me. Within a short time at Leeds Uni she'd adopted a Leeds accent. She then moved to Derbyshire and within weeks had a pronounced Whaley Bridge accent! A few years later I too moved up North but even after 20 years my accent's nothing like as strong as hers. I've neither tried to keep my old one nor adopt a new one (apart from phonics at school!) - perhaps you need to consciously allow your accent to change? Edit: That's just reminded me - an English-born cousin of mine, living down the road from my family with his German mother, spoke English with a thick German accent, even after being at school for a few years. Then, at about the age of 11, he rebelled, refusing to speak German any more and, almost overnight, swapping his German accent for a very strong London one - in fact, we kids, amazed at this transformation, referred to it as a Cockney accent.
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« Last Edit: 22:13:24, 30-11-2007 by MabelJane »
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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Antheil
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« Reply #50 on: 22:16:14, 30-11-2007 » |
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and I also don't see why you should be proud of where you come from. It's an accident, after all, not an achievement. I'd be quite happy if everyone spoke RP. Sorry! Ah, Ron - Welsh meaning "foreign", as in "walnut" . Well Mary, having researched my family back to the mid 1600s in one case, I am certainly proud of where, and the stock, that I come from. As for RP, well that would really be so boring wouldn't it? All of us sounding like Alvar Liddell? At least I don't come from Brazil where the nuts come from
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #51 on: 22:27:21, 30-11-2007 » |
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Yes, MJ, some folk are chameleons when it comes to accents. Others really want to fit in, and work at it. Others hold onto theirs with might and main. I find some accents very easy, but others tremendously hard: I don't have to think about Ulster, but a Southern Irish accent is really difficult for me; I can't get the mouth shape or vocal placing at all. Sometimes it's a single word which provides the key. Having worked very hard at a Scouse accent, I found myself shortly after required to produce a Brummie one - before I'd studied all the stuff I've mentioned above - and it was just mutating back to Scouse all the time. Then one day i was listening to a documentary about schools in Brum when I suddenly heard a kid pipe out "Plyse, Miss, Johnny's stolen moi spyce ship." I was able to place the word space/spyce absolutely from that - it's a very tight tripthong, with a very slight upwards then downwards curved inflection, and the word 'ship' is half way to 'sheep'. From that one sentence I was able to deduce the sound of the whole accent.
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #52 on: 22:32:24, 30-11-2007 » |
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As for RP, well that would really be so boring wouldn't it? All of us sounding like Alvar Liddell?
Yes, I suppose it would. We wouldn't be able to discuss accents on r3ok . Ron, those spluttery Merseyside "t" sounds are a problem in choirs - speaking of which, there is still a big choir in Liverpool called The Liverpool Welsh Choral Union. I don't know if Liverpool people went to Wales, but Welsh people certainly went to Liverpool.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #53 on: 22:40:42, 30-11-2007 » |
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Following the water maybe, Mary.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #54 on: 01:45:28, 01-12-2007 » |
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We also get 'day' rather than 'dy', and with more of an equal stress. Earlier this week in a shop I heard 'Weddensday in quick succession from three separate people age ranges from pre-teens to pensioner, and not related.
That's one of those things that, although I do now know, I have trouble remembering: that 'Wednesday' in RP is 'wensdi' and not (as I say it) 'wensday'. I'm also often unsure which words have which 'u' sound in RP/Southern English. To me, growing up, 'but', 'put', 'book', and 'butter' all had the same vowel (what Southerners represent as 'oo' when transcribing a Northern accent). Since leaving Manchester I've modified the vowel towards the RP 'butter'/'much' vowel, but with words like 'but' and 'put' I'm never sure whether I'm right to have done so, because I discovered much later that there are actually two different 'u' sounds in RP, and for some words 'book' is correct. Oh, by the way, thanks, martle! Much appreciated. That is some comfort.
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« Last Edit: 02:04:17, 01-12-2007 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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time_is_now
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« Reply #55 on: 01:51:02, 01-12-2007 » |
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There is a distinct overlap between Scouse and parts of North Wales, like Wrexham or Hawarden. Is that what you mean by gutteral, Antheil? Think of Michael Owen (the footballer - don't say you've never heard him speak ) who comes, I think, from Hawarden. He doesn't sound Welsh by most people's standards. I can't decide whether I'm more shocked by Mary's spelling mistake (shhh!!!) or by her having heard Michael Owen speak. I don't think I have! I've never heard of Hawarden, either! Is that really Welsh borders? It sounds very much like a Yorkshire place-name (Todmorden, etc.).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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time_is_now
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« Reply #56 on: 02:00:19, 01-12-2007 » |
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At least I don't come from Brazil where the nuts come from The Brazilian accent is one of my favourite accents in the whole world. (The stronger the better - I love the carioca accent from the Rio slums, even though other Brazilians hate it I think!) I can also fall in love at first hearing with a South African, especially the really strong accents (I think these might actually often be the ones who don't have Afrikaans as their first language - if you learn English later you're more likely to try and sound like someone else's English, whereas first-language English South Africans feel no need to moderate their natural accent). I used not to like Australian accents, which I think most people probably prefer to South African, but I'm coming round to them recently. I often don't like the accents other people find attractive: I don't like Irish accents at all, I much prefer the harsher Scottish (or Northern Irish: Belfast I quite like).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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increpatio
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« Reply #57 on: 02:43:41, 01-12-2007 » |
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I used not to like Australian accents, which I think most people probably prefer to South African, Really? Not me, anyway. I don't like Irish accents at all, booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Not any of them at all? (I know you've excepted the NI one, but still...I have a thing for cork ones, and there are several others that I find perfectly tolerable!)
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« Last Edit: 02:48:21, 01-12-2007 by increpatio »
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #58 on: 08:48:40, 01-12-2007 » |
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I can't decide whether I'm more shocked by Mary's spelling mistake (shhh!!!) or by her having heard Michael Owen speak. I don't think I have! I've never heard of Hawarden, either! Is that really Welsh borders? It sounds very much like a Yorkshire place-name (Todmorden, etc.). I have hidden shallows, tinners . My feeble excuse is that I was quoting (sort of) from Antheil's message #38. Guttural: relating to the throat. Gutteral: relating to the gutter . Hawarden (pronounced Harden) is in Flintshire, which may well be called something else by now for all I know.
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brassbandmaestro
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« Reply #59 on: 09:08:23, 01-12-2007 » |
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My favourites are the Irish and French accents. The Irish because of that lilt it seems to have. I better say, ofocourse, that its the softer accent I like best. Places like Belfast, etc, have a harder accent. With the French, I still find it has the quintessentially sexy accent. I suppose it all depends where in France they come from and maybe also the social background as well, perhaps??
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