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Author Topic: Messiah  (Read 2685 times)
oliver sudden
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« Reply #105 on: 21:26:50, 04-01-2008 »

English Coronation (a once in a lifetime event by definition)

Edward VIII springs to mind... Wink

'The Establishment' was certainly kinder to Handel than to Bach during and just after their lifetimes - which has a lot to do with the nature of their music, Handel's being shaped on a mass scale, Bach's much more filigree, always essentially chamber music (there's something chicken-and-egg there of course). But somehow nowadays the musical establishment in the sense of orchestras and choirs (and I suppose recordings companies and broadcasters) in general probably find Bach fits their needs better - even when they spectacularly misrepresent it, as for my money they do with performances of (for example) the Passions on a Handelian scale. I wonder why that should be?
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #106 on: 22:15:57, 04-01-2008 »

If Handel's choral works were indeed neglected throughout the C19th as claimed, I wonder what Messers Novello were doing when they printed Jephtha, Joshua, Judas Maccabeus, The Dettingen Te Deum, Israel In Egypt, the Chandos Anthems etc for the consumption of the Victorian public?  Yet of Bach's music they published not one note.  Handel (& Haydn) became so well-loved amongst choral societies (especially in Wales) that people christened their children after the composers, as forenames.

I wonder if we're going to hear any more about the secret plot to foist Bach (who was largely unperformed and unpublished in the C19th) upon music-lovers?  Who were the guilty parties?  Let's name names, I say!   Grin
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martle
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« Reply #107 on: 22:21:13, 04-01-2008 »

I'm nominating this thread as Thread of the Year (so far). Who would have thought that so much fascinating stuff would be engendered by a tired but wonderful warhorse!

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oliver sudden
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« Reply #108 on: 22:46:45, 04-01-2008 »

Handel was a shameless recycler: I can't quote any bits from Messiah, but no doubt they are there.

Ah, I missed this one.

My favourite recyclings in Messiah are from some Italian chamber duets. The first movement of No, di voi non vo' fidarmi (HWV 189) became For unto us a child is born; its last section (So per prova i vostri inganni)ended up in All we like sheep. The duet HWV 192 apparently supplied His yoke is easy (Quel fior che all'alba ride) and And he shall purify (l'occaso nell'aurora). All that helps to explain why the chorus ended up having to sing such curly coloratura. It also explains the emphasis in FOR unto us a child is born... although he changed the first few notes of So per prova so it would fit the new words.

Sorry, just felt like saying something about Messiah... Wink
« Last Edit: 23:07:22, 04-01-2008 by oliver sudden » Logged
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #109 on: 22:59:43, 04-01-2008 »

If Handel's choral works were indeed neglected throughout the C19th as claimed, I wonder what Messers Novello were doing when they printed Jephtha, Joshua, Judas Maccabeus, The Dettingen Te Deum, Israel In Egypt, the Chandos Anthems etc for the consumption of the Victorian public?  Yet of Bach's music they published not one note.  Handel (& Haydn) became so well-loved amongst choral societies (especially in Wales) that people christened their children after the composers, as forenames.



Further to Reiner's point:

I have in front of me my copy of Novello's Original Octavo Edition of Tannhauser and the Tournament of Song at the Wartburg, price three shillings and sixpence, sadly undated*.  Inside the back cover is a list of Novello's Original Octavo Editions of Oratorios, Cantatas, Odes, Masses &c, which I am too bog-idle to scan, but includes:

Bach - Mass in B minor, the Passions (S. Matthew, abridged as used at St Paul's), The Christmas Oratorio, and a selection of choruses, including God Goeth Up With Shouting, My Spirit Was In Heaviness, and I Wrestle and Pray;

Handel - Alexander's Feast, Acis and Galatea, Alceste, Semele, Alexander Balus, Hercules, Ataliah, Esther, Susannah, Theodora, Belshazzar, The Messiah, Israel in Egypt (ed. Mendelssohn), Judas Maccabeus, Samson, Solomon, Jephtha, Joshua, Deborah, Saul, Chandos Te Deum, Dettingen Te Deum, Utrecht Jubilate, O Praise the Lord, Coronation and Funeral Anthems, Ode on St Cecilia's Day, L'Allegro, Dixit Dominus, Nisi Dominus.

Only Mendelssohn has a longer list of available items than Handel, although Haydn and Gounod do rather well too.

*edit:  I've just found the date - 1899.
« Last Edit: 23:02:30, 04-01-2008 by perfect wagnerite » Logged

At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #110 on: 23:01:18, 04-01-2008 »

My favourite recyclings in Messiah are from some Italian chamber duets. The first movement of No, di voi non vo' fidarmi (HWV 189) became For unto us a child is born; its last movement ended up in All we like sheep. The duet HWV 192 apparently supplied His yoke is easy and And he shall purify. All that helps to explain why the chorus ended up having to sing such curly coloratura. It also explains the emphasis in FOR unto us a child is born...

Both of these duets appear on this delightful disc:



This Christmas, I've listened to new recordings of both Messiah (Linn's Dunedin recording) and the Christmas Oratorio (Harnoncourt). It was certainly good to hear the Dublin version of Messiah, with surprises such as 'But who may abide' sung by the bass! I rather like Minkowski's version, which seemed to divide the critics. I'm much less familiar with the music in the Christmas Oratorio, but thought the soloists on NH's new set very impressive.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #111 on: 23:02:15, 04-01-2008 »

a selection of choruses, including God Goeth Up With Shouting, My Spirit Was In Heaviness, and I Wrestle and Pray

Anyone know the original texts? Especially for the last one? Smiley
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #112 on: 23:05:26, 04-01-2008 »

Both of these duets appear on this delightful disc:

I'm at the moment listening to Emma Kirkby and Judith Nelson trading semiquavers on an old Decca disc which also includes David Thomas travelling from bottom C# to top A in the twinkling of an eye.

Looks as though it might only be available now from Australian Eloquence and ArkivMusic...
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #113 on: 23:06:23, 04-01-2008 »

its last section ended up in All we like sheep.


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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
oliver sudden
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« Reply #114 on: 23:08:00, 04-01-2008 »

"I know your lies from experience!" Wink
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richard barrett
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« Reply #115 on: 23:12:45, 04-01-2008 »

Anyone know the original texts? Especially for the last one? Smiley

A wild guesser writes: the motet Ich lasse dich nicht BWV Anh 159 (actually by Johann Christoph Bach)
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #116 on: 23:13:51, 04-01-2008 »


I have in front of me my copy of Novello's Original Octavo Edition of Tannhauser and the Tournament of Song at the Wartburg, price three shillings and sixpence, sadly undated*.  


Interestingly, there is also an advert for:

THE VILLAGE ORGANIST

A series of pieces for Church and General Use

edited by J Stainer and F Cunningham Woods

18 Volumes

"This collection has been specially compild with a view to supplying a want felt by the many organists who have only a small instrument at their disposal in country churches, and who often have some difficulty in finding short and easy Voluntaries suitable for their own use and the instruction of their pupils"
And nowhere in the 18 volumes is there a single piece by Bach.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
richard barrett
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« Reply #117 on: 23:18:43, 04-01-2008 »

And nowhere in the 18 volumes is there a single piece by Bach.

To be fair, though, he didn't specialise in "short and easy" organ pieces.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #118 on: 23:19:56, 04-01-2008 »

And nowhere in the 18 volumes is there a single piece by Bach.

To be fair, though, he didn't specialise in "short and easy" organ pieces.

Agreed - I was thinking of something in the way of arrangement of chorales, or bits from the Anna Magdalene Notebook
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
oliver sudden
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« Reply #119 on: 23:23:17, 04-01-2008 »

Or a nice little Pastorale or Canzona or maybe a trio sonata... plenty of options really. Certainly I'd be amazed to see an 18-volume set based on that premise without a note of Bach nowadays.
« Last Edit: 23:25:14, 04-01-2008 by oliver sudden » Logged
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