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Author Topic: Messiah  (Read 2685 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #90 on: 04:53:03, 03-01-2008 »

Bach writing for more humble forces, Handel being feted by royals and big opera houses,

Exactly so.  Bononcini's name (and music) have gone entirely unmentioned in the discussion - and you'll scrat-about in vain for recordings of any of the music that was rated Handel's greatest rival at the time.  Bononcini's "Opera Of The Aristocracy" proved the fickleness of the London public, and an absurd judgemental streak which has, however, surfaced in the messages above.

I'm unconvinced by stagings of Handel's oratorios.  Poetry the texts may be - drama they aren't.  Drama requires well-formed and credible characters, placed in a sequence of situations which challenge their beliefs and abilities (pace Dario Fo amongst many others).  Handel was the master of the operatic genre, and as both a composer, and moreover as an impresario with a financial interest in the box-office success of his work, took particular care in securing well-crafted libretti.  For example, when he already had a good libretto for TAMERLANO in his hands, one of the soloists for the piece arrived from Italy with a different version of the Tamerlane story....  Handel read it assidusouly, found material he liked greatly, and worked day-and-night to make changes in his own work that would incorporate this material (even though the piece was already in rehearsal and an opening night announced).

Handel was more than aware of the genre difference between opera and oratorio - a difference which is certainly not so blurred as the "staging Handel's oratorios" pundits would have you believe.  We discussed the THEODORA production here before, but not really in any depth.  It's impossible to believe in the goody-goody Cultists of Theodora - because they never have any action (in the libretto) in which their "goodness" is manifested.  Instead they gawp around "looking Holy", trying to do that impossible* thing - displaying character traits without any outlet for doing so.  However, fair play to Sellars - he isn't one-sided, and the outrageous overacting that goes into the chorus's appearance as the Drunken Court Of Diocletian's Procurator  is equally unbelievable. ("ah, beer cans - they must be evil johnnies, eh, what?").  The antipathy between two groups of people you don't care a whit for is a poor start to a drama, and the plight of Theodora in her woefully static imprisonment makes an appeal to the heart which sadly falls into the category of maudlin sentimentality.  (My thumb began to hover over the FF button from this point onwards).  The last scene with the lethal injection is a rather cheap trick.  The reason it doesn't work for me, is because none of them are believable at any stage - because there is so little action in which the characters can be manifested.  (Croft tries his darndest, and they're all straining to do a good job in impossible circumstances).  I later listened to the entire piece again with the screen turned off, and enjoyed it rather more - as an ORATORIO it's a successful work, in a fine performance (although I still lean towards the McCreesh recording).  THEODORA is a work of reflection, not of action.  Handel perfectly finds that reflective mood in his score, and clearly never intended the work to be staged.

I'd really question whether there was ever an artistic basis for staging the work, and whether it wasn't commercial concerns, and the British public's unstaunchable appetite for Handel's religious works that dictated the choice of repertoire here?  It's hardly as though there's a shortage of Handel operas to perform...  nor those of his more talented contemporaries such as Hasse, or indeed - since I've been challenged on it - Telemann, and more pertinently Vivaldi.

There is, however, a streak of the British public whose views we can see above - who despise opera. They can, however, be won over to Oratorio, because they believe that genre to be shorn of all of the vile and detestable traits found in operas (such as "opera hats" (c) Mumbly).  You'll excuse my cynicism in suggesting that Glyndebourne were very well aware of this when staging Theodora, and Bach's B-Minor Mass.  Nothing's quite so profitable as religious fervour - just ask Jimmy Swaggart  Sad

* Brook proved the impossibility of this with his "Theatre Of Cruelty" experiments at the RSC - the conclusions of which are regarded as authoratative for mainstream theatre.
« Last Edit: 10:03:52, 03-01-2008 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
richard barrett
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« Reply #91 on: 09:32:31, 03-01-2008 »

Gosh! are we on Handel vs. Bach again? I didn't think we went in for this "my composer is bigger than yours" stuff here.

Handel makes a mockery of Bach's efforts.
Speaking personally, Handel's work is something I get enjoyably and fruitfully involved in from time to time, while I find Bach's work inexhaustible (Mauricio Kagel: "Es mag sein, dass nicht alle Musiker an Gott glauben, an Bach jedoch alle" - it might be that not all musicians believe in God, but they do all believe in Bach). Mockery doesn't come into it.

I agree completely, Reiner, about staging Handel's oratorios (or anything by Bach) although I do prefer their music on the whole to that of his operas, partly because they don't consist entirely of alternating recitatives and arias, partly because the arias themselves are somewhat less fixated on stock situations, partly because (once he had it together) I find his setting of English more individual and affecting than his setting of Italian. To me his operas don't really rise so far above those of his contemporaries - not just Hasse, Telemann and Vivaldi but also Keiser, Scarlatti and Graun, let alone Rameau, though that's a different genre again.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #92 on: 10:40:40, 03-01-2008 »

Reiner, you left out the Coke cans... Wink

Despite Reiner's fine presentation of the case to the contrary I do remain a big fan of Peter Sellars' staging. (Which I don't say just for the sake of argument, rather just so that no one coming along here might be put off the idea of investigating it.) I can't say anything against Reiner's concrete objections, only that they don't stop it being for me an effective theatrical experience. It's easy to call the lethal injection scene a cheap trick but unlike many cheap tricks it does at least spring from the text ('Streams of pleasure ever flowing'... OK, groan if you like but it worked for me).

Certainly there's not quite a useful amount of characterisation and general action to be had in most of the Handel oratorios. On the other hand for me there's really not that much in most of the operas either and the oratorios at least benefit from the absence of certain staging conventions, as well as from a more direct relationship with the language as Richard points out. (I do find Tamerlano very much an exception among the operas... on the other hand for me the oratorios have even more exceptions!) And also on the other hand I think nowadays it's not too much either to ask either a director to make sense of moments where the plot doesn't move (goodness knows da capo arias have enough of that!) or to ask an audience to acccept some gloriously reflective music. Ultimately the experience needs to have dramatic pacing whether it's staged or not - and I personally find that more in the more dramatic of Handel's oratorios (Belshazzar, Hercules, Theodora) than in any operas I know before, well, Mozart.
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #93 on: 11:04:16, 03-01-2008 »

I find that Handel's oratorios tend to maintain a consistent level of musical and dramatic quality/interest right up to the end, whereas an awful lot of his operas have resolved the essence of the plot by the end of Act 2 leaving the whole of Act 3 for resolution of subplots, reflection, moralising and so on.

Handel's oratorios often work on stage, but in my experience his operas rarely work in concert, regardless of the quality of the cast.  While there are many composers whose stage works stand up pretty well in concert performance, Handel's NEED to be staged, or semi-staged at the very least.  Remind me never to choose to sit through a concert performance of Rodelinda ever again!

As for trying to choose between Bach and Handel, I suppose in the end I would have to go for Bach.  He has the edge because as a singer I find his music so much more satisfying to perform, and as a listener I find my interest never wanes while listening to a multiple-movement work.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #94 on: 15:41:28, 03-01-2008 »

Reiner, you left out the Coke cans... Wink

Not completely - I was just waiting for the offer of a "bung" from the Coca-Cola Corp for product-placement of their product in my exegesis Smiley   But I see your email got to them first...  Shocked

I can see that HERCULES might make a slightly better stage work - "Where shall I fly?/See, see they come" is a clear escapee from the opera-house, and decades ahead of its time  Smiley

I ought to disclose my latent fear that if Handel's oratorios become staged regularly, this opens the stage door to the swirling vortex of Victorian faux-piety that includes Mendelssohn's ELIJAH, reaching a low-water mark with Parry's "The Soul's Ransom", and finally gurgles down the plughole with Stainer's "The Crucifixion"  Roll Eyes
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
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Rod Corkin
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« Reply #95 on: 17:21:20, 04-01-2008 »


I have the Glyndebourne Theodora DVD, but I mostly listen to just its soundtrack that I ripped from it for my audio player. There is no CD recording of this music that matches the Glyndebourne performance. The singing has conviction and the orchestra is great. Sellar's 'semaphore' methods have failed elsewhere but work here, as the music almost invites this form of movement. Also the staging was minimalist and abstract, which is at least is in some small way is in keeping with it's oratorio origins. At least this production brought this unsurpassed music to the public eye and ear. I don't think Theodora was performed in the modern era before the 1990's. There is no excuse for this.

The British appetite for Handel's big vocal pieces is only a recent phenomenon, because for years the musical establishment didn't want to perform them. Today audiences around the world are flocking to his operas, odes, oratorios, music dramas, whatever you want to call them. Because the music is as good as it gets, simple as that.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #96 on: 17:30:17, 04-01-2008 »

I don't think Theodora was performed in the modern era before the 1990's. There is no excuse for this.

McGegan seems to have recorded it barely earlier than that (1989); no idea if anyone else pipped him to it. There certainly wouldn't be any excuse for it. I do remember an old vocal score of it in that charming old English typeset style which might suggest it made it to performance some time. Various bits were marked 'it is suggested that this be omitted' or 'this is usually omitted' or some such. 'Dread the fruits of Christian folly' was one such. Absurd to leave that out, on characterisation grounds if nothing else.

It wasn't all that successful in Handel's day, alas.

Quote
Morell quotes Handel as saying "The Jews will not come to it because it is a Christian story; and the ladies will not come because it is a virtuous one." Handel's colleague Burney took note when two musicians asked for free tickets for Messiah and Handel responded "Oh your servant, meine Herren! you are damnable dainty! you would not go to Theodora - there was room enough to dance there, when that was perform"!

Theodora was actually Handel's favorite of his oratorios. The composer himself ranked the final chorus of Act II, "He saw the lovely youth," "far beyond" "Hallelujah" in Messiah.

Thanks to wiki once again.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #97 on: 17:53:05, 04-01-2008 »

I don't think Theodora was performed in the modern era before the 1990's. There is no excuse for this.

I certainly got to know it in an LP box set conducted by Johannes Somary which I got in my undergraduate days.

I seem to remember that has the recit lines

"Lady, my guards are ordered to conduct you to Venus's Temple and fulfill her rites."

The McCreesh has, as I remember

"...to Venus' Temple, a prostitute to devote your charms."

The aria "Angels ever bright and fair" figures in that cult novel, L P Hartley's The Go Between sung by the innocent hero at a village concert, vaguely aware it is to do with sex like the relationship he is involved in going between.

I got to know the aria picking it out on the piano from a selection of Handel arias bought in an Exeter junk shop.

Rob may be right that only Messiah and Israel in Egypt were the only ones regularly performed until 50 years ago, but individual arias were well known on the amateur circuit.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #98 on: 18:03:59, 04-01-2008 »

Cool!

http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0001/bsb00016734/images/index.html?seite=1

You've no doubt already noticed that Valens is expressly called 'President' in the libretto. If that isn't giving Peter Sellars an open goal I don't know what is.  Smiley
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #99 on: 18:10:53, 04-01-2008 »

And for the alleged novelty for the popularity of Handel, I certainly remember hearing Semele from the Proms c1970 with Gerald English as Jupiter and the wonderful Helen Watts (whatever happened to her?) as Juno.

I got a Oiseau Lyre box set at the time.  I seem to remember that there Juno wants to "snatch the cursed adulteress."  With John Nelson, Marilyn Horne sings "snatch the cursed Semele".
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #100 on: 18:17:11, 04-01-2008 »

The 'Two Harlots' of Solomon become 'Two Women' in some editions if I remember right...
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Rod Corkin
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« Reply #101 on: 20:34:02, 04-01-2008 »

I don't think Theodora was performed in the modern era before the 1990's. There is no excuse for this.

McGegan seems to have recorded it barely earlier than that (1989); no idea if anyone else pipped him to it. There certainly wouldn't be any excuse for it. I do remember an old vocal score of it in that charming old English typeset style which might suggest it made it to performance some time. Various bits were marked 'it is suggested that this be omitted' or 'this is usually omitted' or some such. 'Dread the fruits of Christian folly' was one such. Absurd to leave that out, on characterisation grounds if nothing else.

It wasn't all that successful in Handel's day, alas.

Quote
Morell quotes Handel as saying "The Jews will not come to it because it is a Christian story; and the ladies will not come because it is a virtuous one." Handel's colleague Burney took note when two musicians asked for free tickets for Messiah and Handel responded "Oh your servant, meine Herren! you are damnable dainty! you would not go to Theodora - there was room enough to dance there, when that was perform"!

Theodora was actually Handel's favorite of his oratorios. The composer himself ranked the final chorus of Act II, "He saw the lovely youth," "far beyond" "Hallelujah" in Messiah.

Thanks to wiki once again.

Harnoncourt's recording of Theodora was in 1991, Glyndebourne/Christie was 1996, Neumann's was 2000, others later. But online the earliest date I can see for McGegan's is 1992, at least the release date. I think the performing edition must have only just been made available around 1989 if the performance was then, certainly there is nothing before that year. I have a whole host of world premier recordings of big Handel works from the 1990s, the reason for this is the Establishment's cult like obsession with Bach for over 100 years, it's that simple. But these days people are snapping out of this deviant senile influence and balance is being restored.

The quotes from Morell are well known, no need to go to wiki, come to me if you want more! And yes Theodora was a disaster at the box office.
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Rod Corkin
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« Reply #102 on: 20:38:40, 04-01-2008 »

And for the alleged novelty for the popularity of Handel, I certainly remember hearing Semele from the Proms c1970 with Gerald English as Jupiter and the wonderful Helen Watts (whatever happened to her?) as Juno.

I got a Oiseau Lyre box set at the time.  I seem to remember that there Juno wants to "snatch the cursed adulteress."  With John Nelson, Marilyn Horne sings "snatch the cursed Semele".

So are you saying Handel was as popular in the 70's as he is now? I think not! It was the rise of the authentic movement that raised Handel during the 80s and especially the 90s. The old Germanic school made a mockery of Handel before that.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #103 on: 21:08:08, 04-01-2008 »

So are you saying Handel was as popular in the 70's as he is now?

No. But he was certainly known and performed by musicians.   And the Hamilton Harty Water Music was a standard.  And the Coronation Anthems were performed without fail at every English Coronation (a once in a lifetime event by definition) but certainly events don't come much more Establishment that that.

I'm delighted Handel's oratorios are so much more readily available nowadays, but it is nonsense to say Handel's works were not performed before the 1970s.

I believe the Nazis wanted to rewrite the texts of the oratorios to expunge references to the Jews.  Not much point in that if they weren't performed.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
richard barrett
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« Reply #104 on: 21:22:39, 04-01-2008 »

I believe the Nazis wanted to rewrite the texts of the oratorios to expunge references to the Jews. 
They did indeed: Judas Maccabaeus became Wilhelmus von Nassauen (only one of several Nazified versions of this work, which were all performed with some "success") and Israel in Egypt became Mongolensturm.
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