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Author Topic: Messiah  (Read 2685 times)
Rod Corkin
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« Reply #30 on: 16:48:08, 01-01-2008 »

Don't waste your money something like the Christmas Oratorio, get the real deal not the pretender.

Do you know a bloke named Mumblesford, Corky??

I have to say that you've thrown down the glove for Idiotic Remark of 2008, before even 17 hours of the year are out.

The person in question does not have a recording of Messiah. Faced with the option of Pinnock's recording or any recording of the Christmas Oratorio there can be only one choice. It would be beyond idiotic to chose anything but Messiah, which is a far superior piece of music in any case. Which would you chose Reiner...?
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #31 on: 17:07:23, 01-01-2008 »

If it was a choice between Handel and Bach, Handel would win with me anytime.  He can do sensuousness, which Bach does not.  But why can't I enjoy both?  I can hum Messiah on the loo and I only listen to the Christmas Oratorio at Christmas (on the respective days, more or less - bit tricky this year as there is no Sunday between 1 and 6 January.) 

The trumpet and bass aria in Bach (Grosser herr) is far more fun, sweet, exciting and serious than the crudity and pomposity of  the equivalent number in Handel "The trumpet shall sound."

Mind you, Handel had the great advantage in Messiah of not having to set the rhyming doggerel that makes up the book of his other oratorios.

Bach wrote his piece for church performance, which explains its rather innocent charm to my mind.  Messiah, to be harsh, was written as money spinner for secular performance to cash in on the public's religiosity.

Equally, why should only one performance be acceptable?  Tony states his preference for some oddball performances, not because he has read it in a review, but because they personally appeal to him.  (Which given his self proclaimed atheism, shows his integrity.)

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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Rod Corkin
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« Reply #32 on: 17:25:49, 01-01-2008 »


Mind you, Handel had the great advantage in Messiah of not having to set the rhyming doggerel that makes up the book of his other oratorios.


Whatever the quality of the texts the other oratorios are fantastic too. Some as good or even better than Messiah.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #33 on: 17:42:28, 01-01-2008 »

O don't get me wrong, I am a sucker for the corniness of C18 poetic diction and it is infinitely preferable to the awful masochism of the words of many of Bach's arias.

But setting the words of the Authorised Version rather than "Awful pleasing being, say" or "Chastity thou cherub bright" may be one reason for Messiah's greater popularity.

Endless pleasure, endless love, I say.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Rod Corkin
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« Reply #34 on: 17:58:54, 01-01-2008 »

O don't get me wrong, I am a sucker for the corniness of C18 poetic diction and it is infinitely preferable to the awful masochism of the words of many of Bach's arias.

But setting the words of the Authorised Version rather than "Awful pleasing being, say" or "Chastity thou cherub bright" may be one reason for Messiah's greater popularity.

Endless pleasure, endless love, I say.

I know they are not masterpieces of literature, but as long as the overall artistic impression is right I don't worry too much about this kind of thing. Isreal in Egypt should pass your test at least, and who other than Handel has produced an oratorio of this magnitude and quality? The absolute comedy of prose that populates Wagner's Ring cycle has apparently not restricted it's popularity. More's the pity in that case.
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opilec
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« Reply #35 on: 18:35:19, 01-01-2008 »

The absolute comedy of prose that populates Wagner's Ring cycle has apparently not restricted it's popularity.

Aha! So it's in prose, is it? Cheesy
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Rod Corkin
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« Reply #36 on: 18:43:15, 01-01-2008 »

The absolute comedy of prose that populates Wagner's Ring cycle has apparently not restricted it's popularity.

Aha! So it's in prose, is it? Cheesy

I really don't know what to call this kind of writing. But whatever it is, it makes me laugh!
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #37 on: 18:49:54, 01-01-2008 »

I know they are not masterpieces of literature, but as long as the overall artistic impression is right I don't worry too much about this kind of thing. Isreal in Egypt should pass your test at least,

I am not knocking the works: the poetic diction is part of their charm for me.  Israel in Egypt, like Messiah, is from the Authorised Version and so in elevated prose (although I think the contralto aria "The land brought forth frogs, FROGS!!!!, even in the king's chambers" with violin solo to represent the little amphibians hopping about, is a bit of a hoot.)

And the other ones have some very respectable literary anticedents:

The libretto of Semele is by William Congreve, the most admired and sophisticated of Restoration dramatists.

Parts of Acis and Galatea are by Alexander Pope, the greatest English poet to my mind.

Samson is based on Milton (admittedly with the versification smoothed out, but I'm no lover of Milton)

I'm no great Wagner fan, but I believe his words were written in a form of the alliterative verse as used in Anglo Saxon poetry.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
roslynmuse
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« Reply #38 on: 18:51:55, 01-01-2008 »

I rather like that other Handel-Milton romp, L'Allegro...
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #39 on: 19:05:22, 01-01-2008 »

My CD of the Messiah is by the Sixteen with Harry Christophers and it is excellent.  I would recommend it.
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Rod Corkin
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« Reply #40 on: 19:18:54, 01-01-2008 »

I know they are not masterpieces of literature, but as long as the overall artistic impression is right I don't worry too much about this kind of thing. Isreal in Egypt should pass your test at least,

I am not knocking the works: the poetic diction is part of their charm for me.  Israel in Egypt, like Messiah, is from the Authorised Version and so in elevated prose (although I think the contralto aria "The land brought forth frogs, FROGS!!!!, even in the king's chambers" with violin solo to represent the little amphibians hopping about, is a bit of a hoot.)..


If God brought forth Frogs, Handel and anyone else will have to bring forth frogs too!! Personally I like that number. The thing is one tends to notice these things when the work is in the home language but are relatively oblivious to them in foreign tongues, which is why Handel oratorios are given such a hard time by English speaking commentators. I could add the reference to a Pelican plucking out the heart in Joseph in his Brethren, crazy to us yet at the time it made good sense.
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Rod Corkin
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« Reply #41 on: 19:19:59, 01-01-2008 »

I rather like that other Handel-Milton romp, L'Allegro...

I think L'Allegro is one of the all time great vocal pieces.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #42 on: 21:10:16, 01-01-2008 »

I'm still waiting to hear Corky's explanation the phrase "get the real deal, not the pretender".

It really is hard to accept the author of such a remark as a serious source of informed comment about individual recordings.

What element of Bach's "Christmas Oratorio" makes it a "pretender", Mr Corkin?  Have you  actually heard this work, Corky?  Which recordings of it have you heard (if any)??  Or pehaps you've been to a live performance, or participated in one?  From whence comes your haughty dismissive arrogance, and by what expertise do you presume to write-off one of the masterpieces of the German High Baroque?

But keep writing, Corky - because I get the same laugh from your postings you get from Wagner's libretti.  But then again, you are utterly biased against all opera due to your known hatred of it. 
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Rod Corkin
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« Reply #43 on: 22:08:08, 01-01-2008 »

I'm still waiting to hear Corky's explanation the phrase "get the real deal, not the pretender".

It really is hard to accept the author of such a remark as a serious source of informed comment about individual recordings.

What element of Bach's "Christmas Oratorio" makes it a "pretender", Mr Corkin?  Have you  actually heard this work, Corky?  Which recordings of it have you heard (if any)??  Or pehaps you've been to a live performance, or participated in one?  From whence comes your haughty dismissive arrogance, and by what expertise do you presume to write-off one of the masterpieces of the German High Baroque?

But keep writing, Corky - because I get the same laugh from your postings you get from Wagner's libretti.  But then again, you are utterly biased against all opera due to your known hatred of it. 

Yes I have heard the Christmas oratorio, by coincidence I made a few critical comments about it at my site a short while ago. The 'pretender' comment was in relation to the members apparent desire for 'Christmasy' music. I wouldn't read too much into that. Although Messiah is of course not designed as Christmas music, it has over time become associated with this time of year because of the nature of the music itself. Bach's oratorio is to a fair degree a composite of earlier material.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #44 on: 22:20:38, 01-01-2008 »

Bach's oratorio is to a fair degree a composite of earlier material.

Ah, the romantic fallacy.  The most famous aria, the alto lullaby, was originally in a piece on the choices of Hercules, expressing the temptations of Pleasure, (as opposed to Virtue or Duty, or some other dull abstraction.)  I believe the wonderful opening chorus was originally to celebrate the election of the Town Council or some such civic excitement.

What the hell.  They're lovely as they are.  I have never been a Bach fan, hitherto, but I am getting quite enthusiastic.  Handel was a shameless recycler: I can't quote any bits from Messiah, but no doubt they are there.  I believe there are substantial quotations in Israel in  Egypt from minor composers. 
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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