owain
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« Reply #330 on: 23:43:56, 08-02-2008 » |
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Regarding slippery pegs: one thing is to make sure that the string is wound on correctly. It should be pulled in against the side of the peg box, on the side of the peg 'handle' (is there an actual term?), with the windings lying parallel to one another. The principle is that the tension of the string is pulling the peg in along its taper and that any further turning pushes the string in between previous windings and the side of the peg box, further adding to the lateral pressure holding the peg in place. In serious cases, where chalk doesn't work, another option is putting a small dab of rosin dust onto the contact points of the peg. If you use too much, however, you'll regret it for a long time! Owain is dead right on the bow, forearm and upper arm forming a plane. In bowing, you open and close all joints in your arm (well, generally) so the plane needs to be just about level with the string. More advanced techniques later go against this, but it is a good starting point. Ah, yes, the elephant-memory pupils who love to point out contradictions. "But you said..." |
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John W
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« Reply #331 on: 12:38:19, 09-02-2008 » |
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Regarding slippery pegs: one thing is to make sure that the string is wound on correctly.
Thanks owain, your explanation makes perfect sense. My repeated attempts to get the G string peg to stay put led to the string breaking this week, my inexperienced fingers were not able to wind the string correctly. And looking at the other pegs I can see my friend John the Restorer wound them on perfectly. In serious cases, where chalk doesn't work, another option is putting a small dab of rosin dust onto the contact points of the peg. I've received a few accessories via ebay this week. A set of spare strings; prices vary, I bought a set of German strings, by Lenzner. Also a tin of peg paste, and also a set of fine tuners which I hope I'll work with better than the pegs. I'm visiting John again this weekend, he's offered to help me set up the fine tuners (without scratching the violin!) and replace the G string. I've also got myself a velvet pad shoulder rest, hoping that will help me get to a comfortable posture where I'm not twisting my arm/wrist to reach the G string. Had a lousy cold this week so practice has been neglected. I have two practice pieces to work on in the starter book but I think I need to be thinking about beginner's lessons now. John W |
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A
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« Reply #332 on: 16:06:27, 09-02-2008 » |
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The shoulder rest should fit between the instrument and the neck. Put the shoulder rest on your shoulder with your head facing front. Violin on the pad and turn your head to the violin ready for playing. There should be no shrugging or raising of the shoulder at all... the whole position should be relaxed and natural ( how crazy is that if you think of what you are doing... but you know what I mean!!)
If the gap isn't filled put a duster or something similar to fit !!
A
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Well, there you are.
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John W
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« Reply #333 on: 13:36:32, 11-02-2008 » |
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Thanks A,
I visited John the Restorer yesterday, getting help setting up the Maidstone again with the fine tuners, there was still trouble with a couple of the old pegs but with the new setup I hopefully just need to use the fine tuners and won't stress any strings to breaking point again. Working with pegs can be a bit tricky at times I can see, but I've learned a lot already. Fitting the fine tuners was also a little tricky as the old tailpiece wasn't designed for them and the little balls at the end of the strings were a tight fit behind them but got there in the end. Very fiddly little jobs, I couldn't have done it without John's help.
The strings I bought were a bit inferior so John kindly fitted a new Thomasik G string tomatch the other three.
In case I have further problems John loaned me another violin, a 'Strad' copy, doesn't look as old as the Maidstone. I've done a bit of practice with both violins, the Maidstone does have a better sound but, funnily, the 'Strad' is easier for me to play, a bit more comfortable as the neck seems to be a bit narrower and I can get my fingers over it better, my fingertips better positioned above the strings so I'm not reaching so much and able to keep some bend in the knuckles.
So the 'Strad' could be the useful early practice instrument, I could take it to early lessons, and later get back on to the Maidstone and hear that better tone.
John W
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #334 on: 18:51:38, 11-02-2008 » |
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This is a bit of a basic question but I don't think it's been answered before [ducks behind sofa] but when violinists tune their instruments, do they tune them in equally tempered fifths (to the piano) or to just fifths (i.e. to their third harmonic)?
I suppose I've never thought about it much before.
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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John W
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« Reply #335 on: 21:00:43, 11-02-2008 » |
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Well hh, I'm no expert being very new to the instrument and with no formal musical education, so I don't know what 'third harmonic' is, but I'd welcome an explanation.  At John's house we were re-stringing the instrument and we used a small electronic keyboard to get close by ear to GDAE.  Then we used a little clip-on electronic gizmo to do the fine tune. It's instructions only say A4 = 440Hz The procedure of tuning, checking the bridge etc that we went through is described similarly here: http://www.curtisviolins.com/tuning.shtmlEdit: sorry, just to clarify, our gizmo doesn't produce tones, it gives you a 'green light' when you are in tune (and a series of red ones as you get closer). John W |
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« Last Edit: 22:26:33, 11-02-2008 by John W »
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #336 on: 21:12:10, 11-02-2008 » |
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Some string players tune their fifths pure, some tempered. And of course some do either depending on context - of course if playing with a piano tempering the fifths is probably a good idea. Especially if you're playing viola or cello: there the tuning note is the top string not one of the middle ones so there are more pure vs. tempered errors to accumulate. A pure fifth is a tiny bit bigger than a tempered one so if the A string is right and the fifths are all pure the C string will be pretty dodgy with the piano - violas and cellos often do a special check of that one.
A pure fifth is one where you don't hear any beating between the notes; in a tempered fifth there's a little beating and players often learn the 'taste' of it just as tuners of keyboard instruments do. I haven't seen any string players mucking about with harmonics to tune, though. (The third harmonic on the G string would be a D, which is what hh is getting at - but the tuning of harmonics is a tricky issue in itself.)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #337 on: 21:25:49, 11-02-2008 » |
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I haven't seen any string players mucking about with harmonics to tune, though. You don't regard guitarists as string players then?  |
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owain
Posts: 52
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« Reply #338 on: 21:47:18, 11-02-2008 » |
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Tune a violin and a viola or cello with pure fifths from the A, and the C and E strings will be noticably discordant against one another. A useful habit to be in when playing in an ensemble is tuning to pure fifths and then closing in this interval ever so slightly by raising the C and lowering the E. If I'm playing something entirely atonal, then I'll attempt to bring my violin closer to an equal temperament tuning, no problem if there's a well-tuned piano accessible, but not as easily done with the violin alone!
Returning to tonal music, string players certainly don't play in equal temperament. One of the benefits of having variable pitches is that it's possible to push notes higher or lower depending on their role, without crossing the boundary into simply sounding out of tune. Major thirds can be made to ring out by bringing them up, and leading notes can be nudged in closer to the tonic. The impending resolution of sevenths is clearer with them adjusted the opposite way.
(Some cellists and particularly double bassists certainly do muck about with harmonics when tuning, although it's not always clear that they know what they're doing...)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #339 on: 21:56:20, 11-02-2008 » |
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particularly double bassists certainly do muck about with harmonics when tuning Double bassists do it for the same reason guitarists do: on an instrument tuned in fourths, the third harmonic of a atring is the same pitch as the second harmonic of the next one up, enabling beats to be eliminated from the ensuing unisons which will ring on while the left hand leaves the fingerboard to adjust the tuning peg. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #340 on: 22:04:40, 11-02-2008 » |
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Indeed, excuse me, I was thinking of da braccia string players.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #341 on: 22:11:56, 11-02-2008 » |
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Thanks all. That answers my question quite nicely!
Now to write the piece...
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #342 on: 22:28:03, 11-02-2008 » |
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Re tuning to harmonics (and the trickiness thereof), a composer friend of mine who writes a lot of orchestral music, often including some instruments tuned either a quarter-tone down or using various natural tunings, said he found it distinctly odd that the detuned violin(s) (and viola?? sorry, my score's at the bottom of a big pile of stuff and I can't check just now!) in Ligeti's Violin Concerto were instructed to tune to double-bass harmonics, since he said the latter are unstable in the extreme.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #343 on: 22:36:35, 11-02-2008 » |
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Harmonics are, alas (?), never exactly what (simple) theory predicts them to be because of the inharmonicity of the strings. A similar real-world effect also applies to wind instrument harmonics, brasses included.
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A
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« Reply #344 on: 22:37:32, 11-02-2008 » |
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I have to say that I tune in pure fifths as I usually play with an orchestra, so there is not mush of the other tuning going on. Tune to a concert A from the oboe then perfect fifths on the other strng.. the 'non vibrating' sort!
A
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Well, there you are.
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