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richard barrett
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« Reply #45 on: 11:47:41, 04-07-2007 » |
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Oh. I didn't know that neither Finale nor Sibelius supported time-space notation. This means I'll be staying with pen and paper until further notice, I think.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #47 on: 17:19:08, 04-07-2007 » |
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It's not easy, but it's really no different at all from what I'd do were I making the score by hand Come on, Aaron. We can aim higher than that!  Sure. Though, Ollie, you also deleted the next phrase, which read ...only w/ Finale I don't have to then _also_ determine the proper location of every notehead/stem in the bar
That seems a fairly crucial distinction. And certainly quite a bit different from hh's method, where each entry item was more or less placed by hand, no different than if it had been done with pen and paper. FYI, I would think, at least for the Finale people, the most useful approach for getting this issue taken care of is to contact Tobias Giesen of TGTools. For those who own the Professional level of his plug-in collection, he's usually quite good about building in their requests to future versions of his plug-ins. It wouldn't be a perfect fix, but it would at least automate the sort of approach I've been using. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #48 on: 17:26:08, 04-07-2007 » |
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It's not easy, but it's really no different at all from what I'd do were I making the score by hand Come on, Aaron. We can aim higher than that! Sure. Though, Ollie, you also deleted the next phrase, which read ...only w/ Finale I don't have to then _also_ determine the proper location of every notehead/stem in the bar
That seems a fairly crucial distinction. A distinction certainly, and yes that was a bit much of me. Crucial? - hm. How would it have looked if I hadn't overegged the pudding? It's not easy, but it's really no different at all from what I'd do were I making the score by hand...only w/ Finale I don't have to then _also_ determine the proper location of every notehead/stem in the bar
Come on, Aaron. We can aim higher than that! |
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Colin Holter
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« Reply #49 on: 17:56:02, 04-07-2007 » |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the main problem is that the system margins can't be automatically adjusted when the music spacing is changed–this would allow easy time-space notation, right? Finale can already make the bar lengths proportional within each system; it's making them proportional between systems that seems to be the stumbling block. As Aaron mentioned, this sounds like the kind of thing that a plug-in could fix pretty well (although frankly I have no idea what it takes to write a plug-in). Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "time-space notation"–to my mind, it seems like a kind of formatting, not a kind of notation per se.
Happy Take Your Stamp Acts And Shove Them Day, by the way. No hard feelings.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #50 on: 19:40:09, 04-07-2007 » |
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Happy Take Your Stamp Acts And Shove Them Day, by the way. No hard feelings.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #51 on: 16:40:13, 05-07-2007 » |
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You are happy people. You learnt Sibelius. I have limited brain capabilities and I am struggling.
I don't put too much time in learning because I want to practice, but still I find it so challenging.
I can not finish first few bars of my first efforts as an arranger.
I managed to devide left hand in piano part into two voices and produced an eight rest (quiver) above a minim and then three quievers after. I have fair amount of difficulty to put sharp in the last quiver. I get fed up and frustrated easily.
I have to read trhough instructions, but I am so bad at understanding it. I am a slow learner and have to live with it.
But I am impressed with many of you and how you design your scores.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #52 on: 17:02:52, 05-07-2007 » |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the main problem is that the system margins can't be automatically adjusted when the music spacing is changed–this would allow easy time-space notation, right? Finale can already make the bar lengths proportional within each system; it's making them proportional between systems that seems to be the stumbling block.
As far as I know, Finale doesn't in fact do proportional bar lengths automatically. This isn't an option in any of its automatic music spacing settings. I actually manually set the width of each bar in the piece in addition to manually setting the margin widths for each page. And both approaches require turning off all of Finale's automatic music spacing functions. I only recently (2-3 yrs ago?) discovered I could get the spacing to work correctly w/ this manual workaround, and someday when I have loads of free time, I plan to go back and fix my scores from '99 to '03 (which don't have the per-margin adjustments). Would be -very- nice to be able to just click a check box and have it all done immediately and automatically .... Which is my very roundabout way of saying ... It's not easy, but it's really no different at all from what I'd do were I making the score by hand...only w/ Finale I don't have to then _also_ determine the proper location of every notehead/stem in the bar
Come on, Aaron. We can aim higher than that! Well you're right, of course. And I'd be very happy to have the software do the spacing properly w/o my little workaround. It would save a good bit of time and would also make later edits much, much easier. And I'll join in your letter-writing campaign, even if my own experience has been that makemusic! doesn't really care at all about the notational needs of composers doing anything outside of traditional notation that isn't also directly useful for high school music teachers. |
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #53 on: 22:02:36, 05-07-2007 » |
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Judging by everything that has been posted on Finale, there's a much greater likelihood of it adapting to this than Sibelius has, which has rather annoying spacing issues that just cannot be got around without a rather pain-staking approach. I've suspected that I backed the wrong horse for a while now, and this just confirms it.  |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #54 on: 02:20:59, 06-07-2007 » |
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harmonyharmony, I know Finale offer a jump-ship service whereby you send them your Sib disc and an amount which I think is about a third the normal Finale price or even a bit less. Since Finale is rather pricier to start with I know if I were to do that it wouldn't have cost me any more than buying Finale first-up. This from Finale: Oliver- Finale does in fact allow you to space notes in a duration-proportional configuration. We have several built-in options available for note spacing, as well as several settings "Libraries" which include even more pre-defined spacing rules. You can also customize any set of spacing rules as you need. Once these rules are defined, the program handles almost all spacing automatically as you let it. I would recommend downloading a free trial version of the program and trying these features out for yourself. You can download a trial copy of the program here: http://www.finalemusic.com/downloads/demos.aspx. Let me know if you have any further questions. (Name Supplied ) MakeMusic Customer Support Aaron do you have a comment on that? I haven't tried it in the demo or replied to him yet.
[...indeed the demo for Finale 2008 isn't even available yet!] |
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« Last Edit: 13:25:04, 06-07-2007 by oliver sudden »
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #55 on: 03:03:18, 06-07-2007 » |
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Aaron do you have a comment on that? I haven't tried it in the demo or replied to him yet.
It's a bit of crap, frankly, but .... Yes, Finale does permit a wide range of 'automatic spacing' options, but none really does -quite- what you're trying to do, at least w/o my manual workaround. (The libraries are all quite good for normal notation (and there are quite a few of them to choose from, which is really handy!), but none of them are really what you're looking for.) One of the features he mentions (setting up one's own spacing rules) is exceptionally useful (it's what I used to do b/f I did all the bar/margin width tweaking that I do now), but again most of the automated stuff starts w/ a much more flexible idea of what you & I see as 'proportional' notation. (It's 'proportional' in that a crotchet (everyone say "thank you Aaron for translating into English") takes up more space than a semiquaver (a little more or a lot more, depending on which library you load), but it doesn't necessarily take up 4x the amount of space, which is really what you're looking for. (There are settings in Finale that'll allow you to do this, as long as you specify bar lengths, but then there's no guarantee that a crotchet takes up the same amount of space from one page to another, which is also critical for your notational needs, I gather. The only way to correct for this, as far as I know, is w/ my manual fix.)) I would say, in general, that the opportunity to control spacing in Finale is superior to what I've experienced w/ Sibelius up through v.4 ... don't really know what's happened in version 5 that might be better. I'd recommend giving the demo the old college try. My hunch is that Finale is probably a bit better for what you're trying to do, but ... give it a shot for yourself. And let me know if I can help at all. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #56 on: 13:40:42, 06-07-2007 » |
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(everyone say "thank you Aaron for translating into English") No one yet? OK: |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #57 on: 21:35:33, 06-07-2007 » |
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Next instalment. Dear Name Supplied, Many thanks for your reply. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a demo available for Finale 2008 yet at the address you gave me but once it’s available I’ll certainly give it a try. I did pass your response on to a friend who’s a very experienced Finale user (and occasional beta-tester) – he finds he has to calculate his required bar lengths manually and use a manual set-up of the margins to get his scores proportionally notated. (His name is Aaron Cassidy: you can see a score sample of his, done in Finale, at http://www.aaroncassidy.com/music/greeneither.htm). This is what he told me: “Finale does permit a wide range of 'automatic spacing' options, but none really does -quite- what you're trying to do, at least w/o my manual workaround. (The libraries are all quite good for normal notation (and there are quite a few of them to choose from, which is really handy!), but none of them are really what you're looking for.) One of the features he mentions (setting up one's own spacing rules) is exceptionally useful (it's what I used to do b/f I did all the bar/margin width tweaking that I do now), but again most of the automated stuff starts w/ a much more flexible idea of what you & I see as 'proportional' notation. (It's 'proportional' in that a crotchet takes up more space than a semiquaver (a little more or a lot more, depending on which library you load), but it doesn't necessarily take up 4x the amount of space, which is really what you're looking for. (There are settings in Finale that'll allow you to do this, as long as you specify bar lengths, but then there's no guarantee that a crotchet takes up the same amount of space from one page to another, which is also critical for your notational needs, I gather. The only way to correct for this, as far as I know, is w/ my manual fix.))” In case it’s unclear for any reason: what I’m looking for is indeed a spacing option whereby for example a semiquaver always takes up 1/4 the space of a crotchet (and of course correspondingly for other note-values, tuplets etc.) and that these proportions are consistent throughout a piece without having to do any manual calculations. Is that indeed something Finale already offers, or plans to offer? As I mentioned in my initial letter, this is something of great potential interest to many composers and notators which does not appear to be offered as standard or even as a plug-in in the current notation programs. Best regards Oliver Sudden |
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TimR-J
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« Reply #58 on: 12:09:32, 09-07-2007 » |
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Who knows, maybe one of them might listen...  Ollie Things may be different in reality now, but Sibelius make a bit of a thing about 'listening', and certainly in the past have acted on suggestions and complaints from users. My own small contribution a few years ago? Well, when you indicated a metronome mark 'c. [crotchet] = 56', say (as in short for 'circa' or approximately), that little 'c.' completely bugled up playback. Now, it doesn't! Oh, the feeling of achievement! Except for when Mac OS X came out, and they 'carbonised' Scorch so it would work in all the new web browsers, leaving all us poor Mac OS 9 users the option of investing £hundreds in a new computer, or abandoning Scorch altogether. Not being a millionaire, I went with option b for several years, and have hardly touched Sibelius or Scorch since. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #59 on: 13:09:46, 11-07-2007 » |
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Received this a couple of days ago: 07/09/2007 05:46 PM Oliver- To better answer your question, I want to consult with one of our engraving specialists who is out of the office. I will have a response to you as soon as possible tomorrow morning or afternoon. (Name Supplied ) MakeMusic Customer Support www.makemusic.comAnd then this, which I must say is certainly what I call an answer. 07/10/2007 11:36 AM Oliver- I have had a chance to look into Finale's ability to apply perfectly proportioned music spacing for you. As I mentioned, Finale does let you define any music spacing proportions you wish to use (and includes a package of pre-made music spacing libraries, such as Fibonacci proportioned spacing, extra tight and wide spacing, etc.). Using this option, you could define a spacing library for perfectly proportional "time-space" spacing between durations; as your colleague mentioned, we do not currently have a pre-made library for this, and you would need to define this yourself. The manual adjustments your colleague mentioned can come in to play, though, when your spacing is placed across music systems. One of the factors that influences how Finale spaces music is the distribution of measures across systems. Finale (as well as most notation programs) is designed to automatically adjust note spacing to account for how much space is available on a given system - if a system is very crowded with many measures, for example, Finale shrinks the spacing to fit every measure on the system. This spacing may not be the same as the next system, say, that only has one measure in it, even though the proportions between durations are still enforced. This is why, in most cases, some (or much) manual adjustment can be necessary. In conclusion, yes, you can use a "time-space" proportioned spacing table in Finale. It's just important to know that the note spacing between systems is dependent on the content of each measure and the number of measures per system. Let me know if you have any further questions. (Name Supplied) MakeMusic Customer Support www.makemusic.comHope that's of interest to at least some of the assembled company. |
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