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Ian Pace
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« Reply #75 on: 00:56:35, 17-07-2007 » |
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(thank you, Evan!)
Yes, indeed. The post being responded to was most crass and offensive. Amongst other things, technological development has been quicker in some countries simply because they've plundered the resources of other countries in such a way as to be able to finance such development. This is nothing to do with ethnic matters, and all to do with power. |
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« Last Edit: 01:06:48, 17-07-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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richard barrett
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« Reply #76 on: 01:40:36, 17-07-2007 » |
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All I can say to SimonSagt's post is - it's because of views like that that feminist and other comparable branches of musicology are so necessary.
It's because of views like that that books like this are necessary:  ... more necessary than musicology anyway. |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #77 on: 01:46:22, 17-07-2007 » |
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... more necessary than musicology anyway.
It's time for downtrodden musicologists of the world to stand up for themselves - to bash back. Stop living with this inferiority complex, worrying that they are somehow inferior to literary scholars, sociologists, historians, philosophers, let alone composers and performers, and look all those assembled communities in the eye and tell them 'If you don't like it - you can just step outside'.....  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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increpatio
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« Reply #78 on: 01:59:20, 17-07-2007 » |
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(thank you, Evan!)
Yes, indeed. The post being responded to was most crass and offensive. Amongst other things, technological development has been quicker in some countries simply because they've plundered the resources of other countries in such a way as to be able to finance such development. This is nothing to do with ethnic matters, and all to do with power. Perhaps s-s has subscriptions to some of the following periodicals:    or  |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #79 on: 02:08:17, 17-07-2007 » |
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I used to love She-Ra, Princess of Power. I watched it every day after school when I was a little kid. (It was a spin-off of He-Man, which I also liked quite a lot. http://www.he-man.org/cartoon/cmotu/index.shtml. Ehem.) Thank you for that enjoyable trip down memory lane, increp, in the midst of what is otherwise an increasingly disappointing and snarky thread of nothing but rampant and unmitigated ad hominem attacks. Can we pipe down a bit, kids? These are indeed interesting issues worth discussing, but very little of what I've read in this thread in the last page or three counts as 'discussion.' |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #80 on: 02:12:03, 17-07-2007 » |
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I loved Starla, too.
:drool:
(How's that for an inappropriate contribution to a thread that's now ostensibly about gender, sexuality, politics, and music?)
Did you all actually have He-Man and She-Ra in England in the early 80s? That would surprise me quite a lot, somehow.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #81 on: 02:15:13, 17-07-2007 » |
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Increpatio, I should have thought something more like this ridiculous publication (of which, strangely enough, I have read a couple of issues from cover to cover, but that was in Southern California, where strange things happen, to me anyway):  ... and, to save you all going to the trouble of asking Prof Wikipedia what it's all about, this is what he/she says: This England is a quarterly magazine, published in spring, summer, autumn and winter, "for all those who love England's green and pleasant land". It has a large readership among expatriates, many of whom are elderly, and concentrates on the values and customs of England -- especially rural and small-town England -- in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. The magazine started in 1967 with the slogan "As Refreshing as a Cup of Tea!"; it is still edited by its founder, Lincolnshire-born Roy Faiers, and is based in Cheltenham. This England boasts a circulation of 150,000 [1].
The magazine maintains a strongly anti-European stance and is seen by some as arch-conservative and reactionary. It features articles against metrication, the European Union, multiculturalism and other issues which the readership may consider threats to English identity. In the 1990s, it lent its support to New Britain, a very small right-wing political group, which it praised as "the organisation which is campaigning for a complete revival of our country". The Autumn 1994 edition featured an advert for "Merrie England 2000", a publication by Colin Jordan.
In his 1998 book, The English: A Portrait of a People, Jeremy Paxman remarked that the magazine's greatest enemy was "the march of time", remarking that not one article in the magazine looks forward, although this is not always true.
As well as selling recordings of music from the 1940s, it also offers traditional navy blue British passport covers for those who dislike the current European version, plus little British flags to "replace" the European flag which exists on the driving licence and the disabled "blue badge".
The readers' letters in its "Post Box" section often reminisce about bygone days and are critical of various changes in England in the past fifty years, which they consider to be unwelcome, while the "Don't Let Europe Rule Britannia" section is devoted to its campaign against the EU. One recurring complaint in the letters section concerns the supposed preferential treatment given by British immigration authorities to British citizens of African and Asian origin, and to EU nationals like the French and the Germans, over their "kith and kin" (i.e. Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders), when arriving in the "Mother Country" from what it still calls the "British Commonwealth". Oops, sorry, Aaron, I did say I was going to leave this thread... I don't see all these "ad hominem attacks" you're talking about though. |
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« Last Edit: 02:21:01, 17-07-2007 by richard barrett »
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #82 on: 02:34:33, 17-07-2007 » |
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Me, too. Also Jem and the Holograms. In retrospect, it's amazing I turned out as normally as I did. |
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increpatio
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« Reply #83 on: 02:38:18, 17-07-2007 » |
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Increpatio, I should have thought something more like this ridiculous publication (of which, strangely enough, I have read a couple of issues from cover to cover, but that was in Southern California, where strange things happen, to me anyway): What an uncharacteristic compliment to pay Mr S S, to assume that he is not already subscribed to such a magazine! You are clearly becoming more sympathetic in your old age. Never watched it myself, though did giggle at some program that noted that there was a bad guy called Fisto in it  . (funny watching cartoons of one's childhood as an adult, noticing all the hidden innuendo; was watching the first episode of the transformers cartoons recently, and it featured the line (in a situation where the spaceship ran into an asteroid belt) "I'm leaking lubricant" (got a chuckle out of me); I believe that lubricant jokes might even have been a running gag). Me, too. Also Jem and the Holograms. In retrospect, it's amazing I turned out as normally as I did.
May I then suggest the following avatar?  |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #84 on: 02:48:31, 17-07-2007 » |
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Oops, sorry, Aaron, I did say I was going to leave this thread... I don't see all these "ad hominem attacks" you're talking about though.
You're kidding, right? From Old Faithful ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem): An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument ...
Perhaps there's something lost in translation, but I'm fairly certain I could point to a few dozen posts above that would fit into that category. |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #85 on: 02:49:39, 17-07-2007 » |
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Me, too. Also Jem and the Holograms. In retrospect, it's amazing I turned out as normally as I did.
Uh, you turned out what now? You know there are people on these boards who know you, right?  |
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Colin Holter
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« Reply #86 on: 02:50:33, 17-07-2007 » |
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I remember watching She-Ra and wishing I were old enough to enter puberty. Starla I was never so crazy about, but it doesn't surprise me to learn that Aaron's tastes and mine lean in slightly different directions. I would give Jem a solid 6 - maybe even 7 on an especially charitable Saturday morning.
Whether Member Pace harps about it or not, it's ridiculous to deny that white men have pretty much had their way with Western music. Those of us who are white males - which is, I think, most of the Members invested in this argument - may find it uncomfortable to consider that we have the luxury to write music only (or at least principally) because of the colonial enterprising with which our forefathers victimized people of color in days gone by, but that doesn't make it any less true.
On the other hand, there's a certain ethical masochism, a kind of flagellation, that can grip you when you dwell on these things, and I find that although simply wallowing in white guilt can be satisfying, it's not really an answer. (This isn't an indictment of New Musicology, which I feel is very important.)
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #87 on: 02:52:45, 17-07-2007 » |
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Wait wait ... is Jem the one that has the theme song that goes
"Jem is truly truly truly truly outrageous"?
I loved that one, too.
Goodness.
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ahinton
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« Reply #88 on: 08:49:24, 17-07-2007 » |
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There is a very sizeable body of scholarship which has investigated not so much whether some essence of these identities unfailingly permeates the music per se, but that constructions of gender, class, ethnicity, are deeply embroiled in the whole sets of musical value systems that have informed institutionalisation, financial support, teaching, and so on. Just to give the obvious example, the gendered view of sonata form and its importance was taught widely in many universities and conservatoires in the 19th and earlier 20th centuries - are we really to believe this had no effect whatsoever?
No, Ian - we are not - but does that fact of itself justify such ideas and the past teaching thereof? I don't see what you are saying? We'd noticed. What feminist musicology does teach us, I believe, is to look rather more critically and sceptically at the whole value systems underlying such things, and possibly the work that was produced whilst adhering to such things.
If and when it does any such thing, I naturally empathise with it, but this is where "constructs" are "deconstructed" - or at least appropriately undermined - by it and that's fine by me. There's an awful lot more such musicology (to use your own words), however, that seeks to do no such thing and purports to create the opposite effect. Let alone the whole constructions of aesthetic value systems that systematically decry any sort of music-making that is perceived to appeal to members of classes other than that which is dominant, other ethnicities, and so on and so forth. These are just a few ways in which these value systems have permeated music and music-making for some time.
I'm not at all disagreeing with you here either, for there can be no doubt whatsoever that what you state here is shamefully correct. Where I part company with you and some of the gender-musicologist fraternity is when the latter seek to make conjectural statements about the actual nature of the music that women (or homosexuals, if you like), oppressed or otherwise, write, There are some who make such essentialist claims, but I don't accept that's the majority viewpoint. And certainly no more than those in the past who praised certain music on account of its 'manly' qualities and so on. OK, so you don't accept that - and I don't want to have to accept it - but perhaps it may be a case of those that make such claims shouting the loudest, for there is certainly no shortage of evidence of that kind of expression. You still haven't answered my points about listener experience and gender; if I draw attention to that fact as much as just once more, I will probably risk irritating readers immesurably, so I'd better shut up on it now... I don't answer that question because (a) I make no claims in terms of the relationship between listener experience and gender, and (b) I am not an expert on musical psychology and gender (are you?), so do not feel qualified to ascertain whether there may or may not be some essential links between gender and perception. Fine - that answers that OK. The problem is that, where you ask me if I'm an expert in the filed concerned, the proper answer is that no one is so as yet, for the necessary research is barely in its infancy. Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #89 on: 08:54:26, 17-07-2007 » |
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What feminist musicology does teach us, I believe, is to look rather more critically and sceptically at the whole value systems underlying such things, and possibly the work that was produced whilst adhering to such things.
If and when it does any such thing, I naturally empathise with it, but this is where "constructs" are "deconstructed" - or at least appropriately undermined - by it and that's fine by me. There's an awful lot more such musicology (to use your own words), however, that seeks to do no such thing and purports to create the opposite effect. There are some who make such essentialist claims, but I don't accept that's the majority viewpoint. And certainly no more than those in the past who praised certain music on account of its 'manly' qualities and so on.
OK, so you don't accept that - and I don't want to have to accept it - but perhaps it may be a case of those that make such claims shouting the loudest, for there is certainly no shortage of evidence of that kind of expression. To both comments - what would be some examples you would cite? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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