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Author Topic: nightmayor  (Read 2964 times)
John W
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« Reply #165 on: 00:22:23, 07-05-2008 »

Who's asking you to give any of that up? You were asking why some of us worry about the issues being discussed in this thread - I'm saying why they are issues for anyone living in this country.

No. I haven't asked why any of you worry, I said that ranting on here won't change our government. Make your point yes, but some on here are saying that my comfortable lifestyle is part of the problem, or a product of the problem. I'm just doing what I can for my family; no-one else will.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #166 on: 08:31:30, 07-05-2008 »

[...] change our government [...] for my family [...]

We have said before that the concepts of "nation" and "national government" are bogus ones; world government is long overdue. The European idea should be allowed to continue to grow until it encompasses the entire globe; it is the only possible way is not it?

Let us in addition point out to-day that the concepts of "family," "parent," and "blood relative" are similarly bogus and out-dated. "Marriage" is generally deleterious; we think all children should instead be raised in superior socialist single-sex institutions, rather like grand boarding-schools, wherein they might be educated in true ethics as well as metaphysics, æsthetics, the arts, history and natural philosophy.
« Last Edit: 10:28:25, 07-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #167 on: 09:03:39, 07-05-2008 »

We think that Mr Grew's vision has not gone far enough, and child-bearing itself should be abandoned. Only when children are grown in vats will women achieve true social equality with men.

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Allegro, ma non tanto
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #168 on: 09:12:15, 07-05-2008 »

John actually make a very serious (and very good) point.  Ultimately, it is only natural for a person to place the good of him/herself and his/her family above some notional idea of the 'general good' - which, in any case, means different things to different people.

It is for this very reason that Socialism has failed - because it conflicts fundamentally with HUMAN NATURE.
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
Ron Dough
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« Reply #169 on: 09:15:39, 07-05-2008 »

But surely if human nature is left to its own devices unchecked, the results are even more obviously catastrophic?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #170 on: 09:33:12, 07-05-2008 »

But surely if human nature is left to its own devices unchecked, the results are even more obviously catastrophic?
Many socialists do not accept this fundamentally pessimistic view of humanity (without idealising human beings either), and would say that many of the least desirable aspects of what is (ideologically) referred to as 'human nature' (in fact, that term is one of the biggest ideologies there is) - such as greed, aggression, competitiveness, selfishness, materialism, etc. - are the product of particular types of society that demand and thus nurture them. And certain progressive feminists (those who do not subscribe to essentialism/biological determinism/etc) do not accept that traditional characteristics associated with the two genders are innate, fixed and immutable, as well, but arise in a similar manner. I have a lot of sympathy with both such positions. Above all, one of the most crucial reasons for being a socialist is a belief that human beings have much greater potential than they are currently able/allowed to realise.
« Last Edit: 11:03:20, 07-05-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
burning dog
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« Reply #171 on: 09:44:41, 07-05-2008 »

Well Syd's vision of socialism is certainly pretty scary. A "wise" caste of people who "know best" managing the lives of the proles "for thier own good"....And why is world Gov't automatically better than local ones? Public ownership with a perpetuation of the class system is not socialism IMO.



 I think socialism is in the long term self interest of people who don't own stuff. There is nothing inherently "natural" about private property in the sense ofowning somebody else home or owning the product of someone elses labour, as opposed to personal possessions.
« Last Edit: 10:04:10, 07-05-2008 by burning dog » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #172 on: 10:40:05, 07-05-2008 »

Well Syd's vision of socialism is certainly pretty scary. A "wise" caste of people who "know best" managing the lives of the proles "for thier own good"....And why is world Gov't automatically better than local ones? Public ownership with a perpetuation of the class system is not socialism IMO.
Exactly.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Bryn
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« Reply #173 on: 10:55:28, 07-05-2008 »

Well Syd's vision of socialism is certainly pretty scary. A "wise" caste of people who "know best" managing the lives of the proles "for thier own good"....And why is world Gov't automatically better than local ones? Public ownership with a perpetuation of the class system is not socialism IMO.



 I think socialism is in the long term self interest of people who don't own stuff. There is nothing inherently "natural" about private property in the sense ofowning somebody else home or owning the product of someone elses labour, as opposed to personal possessions.

Well, it's not really Syd's vision, is it? It's Huxley's.
« Last Edit: 11:14:54, 07-05-2008 by Bryn » Logged
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #174 on: 10:59:57, 07-05-2008 »

But surely if human nature is left to its own devices unchecked, the results are even more obviously catastrophic?
Many socialists do not accept this fundamentally pessmistic view of humanity (without idealising human beings either), and would say that many of the least desirable aspects of what is (ideologically) referred to as 'human nature' (in fact, that terms is one of the biggest ideologies there is) - such as greed, aggression, competitiveness, selfishness, materialism, etc. - are the product of particular types of society that demand and thus nurture them. And certain progressive feminists (those who do not subscribe to essentialism/biological determinism/etc) do not accept that traditional characteristics associated with the two genders are innate, fixed and immutable, as well, but arise in a similar manner. I have a lot of sympathy with both such positions. Above all, one of the most crucial reasons for being a socialist is a belief that human beings have much greater potential than they are currently able/allowed to realise.

I'd certainly agree that "human nature" is an ideological construct.  One of the fundamental objections I have to free market economics is that it is based on a set of psychological assumptions about how human beings behave, which are routinely falsified in day to day life (I choose to give blood, not to sell it).  Free market economics, IMO, is basically bad psychology.  

And the problem with the economic system that underpins the comfort that some of us enjoy is not just that is based on these unsupported psychological generalisations, or that it involves the economic and political subjugation of other societies (for example by substituting cash farming for subsistence farming, let alone the wars currently being fought in Iraq and Afghanistan for oil), but that it is unsustainable - it involves the exploitation of finite resources in a way which allows use of those resources to be concentrated in a very few hands, and which allows the destruction of those resources (most of all the Earth's benevolent climate) to go unaccounted.  A society that generates wealth by polluting, and then develops industries to clean up the mess is, in market terms, doing well, but some might consider that it would have been better not to have made the mess in the first place.

And it is now generally regarded that shortages of many of those resources (especially water) is the greatest potential source of conflict in the next decades.  

There is a real dilemma for those of us who live comfortable Western lifestyles, faced with the waste and inefficiency and oppression that are bound up with them.  Awareness has to be the first step, but there has to be political engagement too, and an understanding that we will have to let go of some of the things we hold dear - and that life might be better without them.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #175 on: 11:14:48, 07-05-2008 »

Now that, to me at least, seems a reasoned practical point deduced from current affairs.
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burning dog
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« Reply #176 on: 11:26:54, 07-05-2008 »

I don't know how comfortable our lifestyles are. I am far from advocating a back to nature route and am appalled when some varieties of  Greens appear to be saying "It was ok when only the rich could afford to fly, drive  etc." but the current situation seems to need many people having two jobs while still being £1000s in debt, my grandparents used to worry if they owed £20! If they had paid the rent and looked forward to a reasonable pension they were happy.

I've only read Brave New World Bryn, as far as I remember, anyone recommend anything else?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #177 on: 11:31:19, 07-05-2008 »

I've only read Brave New World Bryn, as far as I remember, anyone recommend anything else?

I think Island is also very much worth reading too, as well as The Doors of Perception and The Devils of Loudun.
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burning dog
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« Reply #178 on: 11:32:30, 07-05-2008 »

Thanks - that was quick! Smiley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #179 on: 11:38:04, 07-05-2008 »

Let us in addition point out to-day that the concepts of "family," "parent," and "blood relative" are similarly bogus and out-dated. "Marriage" is generally deleterious; we think all children should instead be raised in superior socialist single-sex institutions, rather like grand boarding-schools, wherein they might be educated in true ethics as well as metaphysics, æsthetics, the arts, history and natural philosophy.


Seriously, though, I don't think there's any real evidence that there's such an immutable thing as "human nature" or that it's based on some pseudo-Darwinian principle of "every person for him/herself". Evolution is a much more profound and subtle phenomenon than that. The very fact that human society came into being at all is due to a motivation to cooperate and collaborate which is at least as deep-seated as any "innate" selfishness.

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