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Author Topic: Political Correctness  (Read 1794 times)
Baz
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« Reply #30 on: 12:00:08, 13-09-2008 »

"Political correctness" is only a term that (to me) means "manners and codes of behaviour arrived at through political insistence rather than through innate moral conviction".
Where is the line drawn between the 'political' and the 'moral'? Does it form part of an irregular verb: I have moral conviction, he/she is politically insistent? Does 'political' mean 'anyone's politics except my own'?

There is no verb (regular or irregular) - both terms are adjectives. You have shown through you own postings that for you there is little difference (if any) between "moral conviction" and "political insistence". And I suspect that - for you - "political" means only "my politics and nobody else's".

Baz
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Peter Grimes
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« Reply #31 on: 12:38:57, 13-09-2008 »

Honestly.

How can such a harmless thread be hijacked?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #32 on: 13:17:33, 13-09-2008 »

The 'political' is a term particularly frequently used by conservatives, to denote some sphere supposedly separate from the rest of thought and activity. But it is not - and in many ways is an unproductive term, though hard to jettison when used as a (thoroughly political) rhetorical weapon by conservatives. But what is often decried as 'political' is that which does not accept at face value certain ideas, assumptions and concepts that through simple reiteration have assumed the status of ideology. Many derogatory terms or assumptions about women, ethnic minorities, the working classes, etc, were once used or held casually, perhaps unthinkingly, possible with no intended malicious intent. But that does not mean they were not offensive and should not be held up to scrutiny. For example, saying 'don't you worry your pretty head about that' to a woman (which may have been intended chivalrously) calling many women 'darling', or admiring the supposed well-endowedness and sexual potency of black men. If questioning those terms is 'politically correct', then 'political correctness' is an extremely positive thing.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Baz
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« Reply #33 on: 13:44:44, 13-09-2008 »

Honestly.

How can such a harmless thread be hijacked?

It was not harmless, and it hasn't been hijacked. The mistake was in starting a "political" thread at all (especially one that actually used the word "political" in the title) and expecting it to remain benign and "harmless".

This MB has been through structural difficulties in the past over political issues, and there is no reason to suppose (bearing in mind those who are likely to cross swords again) that such a thread will prove anything other than contentious, hostile and essentially unrewarding.

Baz
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richard barrett
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« Reply #34 on: 13:59:36, 13-09-2008 »

I agree that it wasn't harmless and hasn't really been "hijacked". The thing is that what you were calling "political correctness", Peter, is to you a mildly annoying question of language. To other people (eg. those who might be offended when SwanKnight calls them "niggers") it is much more than that. Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about. In most of our social interactions we manage not to use offensive terms without feeling that our vocabulary is being forcibly truncated. When it comes to terms which historically connote racial abuse, though, the situation seems to be different. Perhaps people want to be "allowed" to use these "politically incorrect" terms by way of clutching to the last vestiges of the British Empire and its patriarchal certainties. It's pretty undignified.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #35 on: 17:50:17, 13-09-2008 »

I doubt that is the case TF because it would be politically incorrect over here to discriminate against members of society on the grounds of colour. Since Black Police Officers (quite rightly in my view) have their voice, the question arises "should white ones" also. I (logically) should say "yes", but - under current "political correctness" must say "no". Now that strikes me as duplicitous, illogical and ridiculous. But the important question (for me) is this: is my inbuilt wish for racial equality here making me appear to be "racist"?

It is a serious issue
It is a serious issue, and you've touched upon a difficult point: is it not ironic to attempt to abolish racism (i.e. the judgment of people based on their race or skin colour) by means of an organisation which identifies people by their race/skin colour?

However, I think the appropriate question is not 'Why don't we have a White Police Association?' but 'Why do we accept a Black Police Association?'

For myself, I'm happy with the answer that we need the latter only because and until the historical inequalities have been addressed, but I do think that one question those involved in 'identity politics' always need to ask themselves is: To what extent do we accept 'tribal' self-identification by minority groups as an end in itself, and to what extent is it a means to an opposite end (viz., the dissolution of those same identity barriers)?
I was going to let this drop for fear of being misunderstood, but it's too important to me.

I don't understand why Turfan says this isn't about identity. That's not a rhetorical 'I don't understand' which really means 'I understand perfectly well but I want to disagree'; I'm genuinely curious to know whether I'm missing a trick in believing that there are some self-evident paradoxes inherent when people acknowledge a particular way of grouping themselves in order to seek equal treatment (i.e., treatment that does not observe those same grouping criteria).

You can't just say: 'A black person does not deny his or her identity'; that begs the question of why 'black' should be any more of an identity than 'tall' or 'smoker' or 'bald'. I'm not saying there isn't an obvious answer: black is an identity on the basis of which people group together to fight discrimination for the very good reason that it's an identity on which others have grouped them together in order to enact discrimination. But does it have any more raison d'etre than that? Are we seeking an end to the division of people into groups X and Y, or are we happy to retain such groupings as long as we can ensure equal treatment for members of both groups?

These are issues I've thought about a lot in relation to the gay rights movement, and I apologise if my thinking isn't clear when I try to transfer it across to the issue of race, but I think there must be parallels (as well as instructive differences, of course, not least the fact that whether one identifies as gay, and also whether other people are aware of that, is more fluid, and arguably less of a biological given, than one's race). What I'm trying to say is that I think there's room for an intelligent debate about whether a group like the Black Police Association is trying to move beyond issues of race, or beyond issues of discrimination based on race, and the two might be related but they also to some extent might be seen to pull in different directions.

Here's something I wrote on another board a few months ago, which I thought through quite carefully at the time and which I still stand by (although it seemed to get slightly misunderstood over there as well, much to my disappointment and frustration):
qt is right to point out the historical contingency of "gay = oppressed", and it's true that one of the things that gets theorists of gay rights most tied up in knots (certainly in the Anglo-American world) is the tension between pushing for visibility on the one hand and arguing against various manifestations of essentialism on the other. This tension is intrinsic to the whole idea of identity politics, in my view, and applies equally to LGBT, feminist and anti-racist movements, all of which are caught - and sometimes torn - between fighting for equality as sameness and equality as the acceptance of difference.

Often, it seems that discriminatory essentialism is to be condemned not in favour of a world without stereotypes but only in favour of a celebration of (still 'essentially' conceived) differences. The subsumption of individual differences (not all gay men are the same) under the aegis of "look at us, we're gay and it's OK" is not the least danger of this, but is characteristic of the thinking of oppressed groups as they begin to fight for civil rights, and might be considered a price worth paying, in the short term at least.

What I think is too easy to discount is how important identity can feel, even if it is historically contingent. I've grown up in an environment largely free from direct discrimination. I don't have equal civil rights to a heterosexual person but I'm not reminded of that every day, and I'm able on the whole to live my life in what feels like a way I've chosen and am happy with. Nonetheless, my identity as a gay man is crucially important to me, in a way I can't quite explain (and which sits oddly with my intellectual understanding of the history of sexuality).

As for essentialism, well, it's a difficult one - our knowledge of history as well as our awareness of other cultures should make us as wary of positive stereotypes as we are of negative ones, but while it's important to leave room for gay men (or gay women, or straight women) who don't conform to the stereotypes, it's also true that plenty do. The stereotypes don't come from nowhere; what we need may be a more subtly-inflected understanding of how historical contingency produces specific cultural manifestations of identity, rather than a rejection of the idea of common traits tout court.
« Last Edit: 18:11:19, 13-09-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

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richard barrett
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« Reply #36 on: 18:11:19, 13-09-2008 »

Equality and homogeneity aren't the same thing though, are they? or am I missing something too?
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time_is_now
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« Reply #37 on: 18:18:32, 13-09-2008 »

Equality and homogeneity aren't the same thing though, are they? or am I missing something too?
No, but no two white people are homogeneous either, so it's a question of which dividing lines one chooses to accept as significant.

To use the examples I gave, there's a very good reason why at this particular historical moment in this particular society there should be a Black Police Association and not a Bald Police Association or a Tall Police Association. But that doesn't mean there's nothing to think about regarding what aspect of blackness one wants acceptance for. These are issues that minority rights campaigners of all kinds constantly need to engage self-reflexively; in exactly the same way, for instance, feminists are always and necessarily involved in the debate regarding whether they want to achieve acceptance for 'characteristically female ways of doing things' or whether they want to persuade women that 'feminine behaviour' is a damaging social construct which they must resist allowing themselves to be identified with.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
richard barrett
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« Reply #38 on: 18:35:00, 13-09-2008 »

Yes, I do get all that, but the political side of it is fighting against discrimination and therefore the immediate terms are those of the discrimination, right? Over and above that, the confusions you're talking about often arise from advocates of single-issue politics not seeing their issue in context and part of an entire network of inequalities which is endemic to the kind of society we live in.

Which brings me back to the original point about "politically correct" terminology - people who complain about it see rightly that changing the words you use for things doesn't necessarily change your attitude towards them, whereas the point is that once your attitude has changed you don't have to worry about choosing your words any more.
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Baz
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« Reply #39 on: 18:37:58, 13-09-2008 »

Equality and homogeneity aren't the same thing though, are they? or am I missing something too?
No, but no two white people are homogeneous either, so it's a question of which dividing lines one chooses to accept as significant.

To use the examples I gave, there's a very good reason why at this particular historical moment in this particular society there should be a Black Police Association and not a Bald Police Association or a Tall Police Association. But that doesn't mean there's nothing to think about regarding what aspect of blackness one wants acceptance for. These are issues that minority rights campaigners of all kinds constantly need to engage self-reflexively; in exactly the same way, for instance, feminists are always and necessarily involved in the debate regarding whether they want to achieve acceptance for 'characteristically female ways of doing things' or whether they want to persuade women that 'feminine behaviour' is a damaging social construct which they must resist allowing themselves to be identified with.

Having myself raised this whole issue - for which I should apologise but don't - I must say that my motivation was not to make some semantic or "cheap" point. I was thinking ONLY of how black police officers themselves must feel.

Taking t-i-n's gay analogy, it seems to me incredible that anybody in a modern Western society today could even imagine that such people are NOT fully part of society, and indeed perfectly NORMAL members thereof. I should have thought that the (thankfully unnecessary) need for them to have something called "The Gay Person's Association" would be nothing less than an insult and (indeed) an overt acceptance that they were not (yet!) "really" part of the mainstream, but that "because of political correctness" they must have their voice. In my view, only a complete numbskull could see things this way (though I imagine that there are many out there who do).

Now to the focus - if I (Baz) were a police officer who happened to be black, I should not be that encouraged to feel that my welfare in this society was entrusted by this society to be "managed" by an organisation that was already stigmatised by racial overtones such that it was merely a Black Police Association. What (I should ask myself) about all the other police officers (who are overwhelmingly white, and do not need to seek help through an ethnically-contrived channel of communication)? Why should I be any different?

Now I completely accept all the points others have made justifying this, and fully accept without question their views. I just feel so sorry for the black policemen who must always be wondering WHY the society they are dutifully serving is so unfriendly to them.

That's all.

Best,

Baz
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time_is_now
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« Reply #40 on: 18:46:35, 13-09-2008 »

I'm afraid, though, Baz, that gay people do not have equal rights, even in modern Britain - and certainly not in the police force, which is why the Gay and Lesbian Police Association is both welcome and necessary, from my point of view and from that of most of the gay people I know.

This of course doesn't mean that I don't also think the paradox I outlined above applies here too, but that's something to be aware of, rather than a reason to give up the possibility of special representation for oppressed minorities.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
oliver sudden
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« Reply #41 on: 18:48:04, 13-09-2008 »

rather than a reason to give up the possibility of special representation for oppressed minorities.
Why only minorities?  Roll Eyes
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time_is_now
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« Reply #42 on: 18:54:18, 13-09-2008 »

Why only minorities?  Roll Eyes
If you mean that majorities can also be oppressed (as women have been for most of human history, and in a slightly different way the poor or those assigned to the 'lower classes'), then yes, you're right.

If you mean that everyone deserves representation, then there's a page and a half of discussion above arising from a similar suggestion by Baz regarding the creation of a White Police Association. Wink
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #43 on: 18:56:07, 13-09-2008 »

And I don't deny that there are paradoxes to deal with. I assume that the BPA does not require membership of everyone who is black, and does not put pressure on their colleagues who do not join. Also, I assume that the BPA recognizes people who are sympathetic to their cause in some way (without necessarily making provisions for all people to join, i.e., white people and non-police officers).

If the members feel that their group serves its purpose of advocacy, then that's great. If not, then they will disband or reform the thing. That is their decision to make.

If others feel marginalized or otherwise motivated to form a WPA, then that is certainly their right. I can't see what purpose it would serve, however, except to be a political protest against or lampooning/condemning the existence of a BPA. But I guess I would need more information.

In a way, I can see that the existence of a WPA is relatively harmless, as it may well compel the BPA to question its relevance, keep itself honest, as it were. But that time is still very much in the future from what I gather. As it is, it smacks of cynicism and ignorance, to me.

Have I clarified my position at all?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #44 on: 18:56:58, 13-09-2008 »

Baz's faith in "modern Western society today" is touching but obviously untrammelled by any personal experience of oppression. If he lived where I live he would see instances of casual and unthinking racism on a regular basis. If he lived where I lived and wasn't white he'd see them almost constantly, I'm sure.
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