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oliver sudden
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« Reply #45 on: 18:57:05, 13-09-2008 » |
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Why only minorities?  If you mean that majorities can also be oppressed (as women have been for most of human history, and in a slightly different way the poor or those assigned to the 'lower classes'), then yes, you're right. I do hope you won't be surprised to hear that that (and for that matter apartheid, for example) was indeed what I had in mind... |
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Baz
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« Reply #46 on: 19:07:25, 13-09-2008 » |
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I'm afraid, though, Baz, that gay people do not have equal rights, even in modern Britain - and certainly not in the police force, which is why the Gay and Lesbian Police Association is both welcome and necessary, from my point of view and from that of most of the gay people I know.
This of course doesn't mean that I don't also think the paradox I outlined above applies here too, but that's something to be aware of, rather than a reason to give up the possibility of special representation for oppressed minorities.
I did not want to mention the Gay and Lesbian Police Association, because I consider the existence of that entity to be really the most perverse and unacceptable reflection of today's society! While one can (though only to a certain point) somehow "understand" why most mainstream white people may misguidedly and stupidly notice that other people are of a different visual colour, the notion that other members of society (irrespective of their colour or ethnicity) could possibly be discriminated against solely because of their inner adult feelings or private orientations is utterly repugnant to me. This is just another manifestation of the "think police"! It is, to me, somewhat dispiriting that our society seems to think that the creation of these "pressure groups" or "discrete bodies" in any way satisfactorily addresses the cancers that brought them into being. It is also a source of disappointment to me that those who (understandably) feel the need to be respresented by these entities are made to FEEL that way. Baz |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #47 on: 20:16:14, 13-09-2008 » |
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Baz,
May I tell you about an encounter I myself once had with three members of the Metropolitan Police which leads me to think that the police force of all places may be an organisation whose gay and lesbian members may well have a very strong need to stick up for their rights?
I had been to a gay nightclub in Central London. I left with two friends at around 3 or 4am. Because one of them was staying fairly close by, we cut down a secluded street just off Charing Cross Rd to take a short cut. Just as we were about to emerge at the end of the alleyway, three uniformed police officers jumped out of a van and demanded we stop where we were and allow ourselves to be searched.
Now, I can accept that the police do need to stop and search people, sometimes arbitrarily, in the attempt to root out possible instances of criminal activity. I can even accept that they may need to do this in an unfriendly manner in order to instil fear of the law into criminals. What I cannot accept is the necessity for one of these uniformed officers to have told me, as he did, that there was no conceivable reason why an innocent person would be in the area I was at that time of night, because - and I quote - 'Only drug users and homosexuals use this street'. (The word 'homosexuals' was uttered with what can only be described as a sneer.) You won't be surprised to learn that I told him I felt his manner was inappropriate. You may be surprised - I certainly was - that his response was: 'We can arrest you and take you down to the station to be searched if you prefer.'
The notion that I or any other member of society (irrespective of colour or ethnicity) could possibly be discriminated against solely because of my or their inner adult feelings or private orientations is utterly repugnant to me too: repugnant, but it happens! Perhaps it was an isolated instance, but the fact that two other officers stood by and allowed this exchange to take place, and that none of them gave the slightest air of thinking they ought to phrase their comments very carefully or they might get in trouble for them, leaves me significant room for doubt.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #48 on: 02:02:22, 14-09-2008 » |
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I told him I felt his manner was inappropriate. You may be surprised - I certainly was - that his response was: 'We can arrest you and take you down to the station to be searched if you prefer.' A narrow escape altogether what - and we suspect that the Member was in the end saved by his Oxbridge accent mastery of grammar and part upon the stage. Just imagine how the encounter might have run though had he been confronted by a gang of berserk American soldiery in some Middle-Eastern hell-hole, or even by a slant-eyed ahem! A common language is the key is not it? - And we do not exclude therefrom "body language" or even the "language of love." [Note: this message has been corrected in a political manner.] |
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« Last Edit: 16:09:16, 14-09-2008 by Sydney Grew »
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #49 on: 06:43:36, 14-09-2008 » |
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I agree with you, Mr. Sydney Grew,
Body language is very important. We don't give it much attention now days.
We get a lot of our information from body language. I was surprised when I understood that a few years ago.
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« Last Edit: 06:45:20, 14-09-2008 by trained-pianist »
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Baz
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« Reply #50 on: 08:22:41, 14-09-2008 » |
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Mr Grew,
We have for a few days now been mesmerised by your recent motto "De gustibus non est disputandum". Musing frequently upon its subtleties, we are constrained to refer the matter back to its source for definitive arbitration!
Our problem is that when translating the phrase into English we seem to "come up" with two equally viable translations that in fact contradict each other.
So we should be grateful to know which of the following possibilities more closely approximates with your own scholarly rendition:
a) "In matters of taste there is no dispute"
b) "There is not to be a discussion regarding tastes"
With the former no rational person could argue, but in the event that the latter aligns itself more closely with your own "take" we feel this may explain why we have not for some time now heard very much from you regarding "rankings" or "pecking orders".
The weather here is getting colder by the day - are you still suffering from gale-force winds?
Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #51 on: 16:06:51, 14-09-2008 » |
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Our problem is that when translating the phrase into English we seem to "come up" with two equally viable translations that in fact contradict each other. We are glad that the Member has perceived the double meaning! It is precisely the seeking out and facing up to contradiction that motivate the sincere and productive life is not it? It is not possible to argue about tastes not because there are many and each taste and taster differs from the others but because good taste is set in objective stone. So many assertions when considered closely and steadily lose their original meaning and often define themselves in this way altogether out of existence, even. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #52 on: 16:08:35, 14-09-2008 » |
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[Note: this message has been corrected in a political manner.] We could hardly have done it better ourselves Mr Grew!  |
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #53 on: 16:14:52, 14-09-2008 » |
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The last three posts are very helpful.
There are things that people should not be discussing because it is the matter of taste.
I only object to empty words or phrases. One can substitute one set of words of phrases to another, but it doesn't change racism or other bad social behaviour. One can proclaim equality until the end of days, but if substance is not change the situation will not be improved with regards to the social ills.
The PC experiment was done in the old Soviet Union, but there is as much racism there now as in other parts of the world.
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« Last Edit: 16:19:02, 14-09-2008 by trained-pianist »
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #54 on: 18:59:41, 14-09-2008 » |
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It amuses me that "political correctness" has entered Russian as "politicheskaya korrektnost'"... the amusing element being that they've gone for the translation of "correctness" that means "neat and tidy"... rather than implying any sense of implied moral high ground or being "right"  |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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time_is_now
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« Reply #55 on: 19:18:29, 14-09-2008 » |
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Maybe just because it's the one that sounds most like the English phrase they're quoting? ... I once heard a friend of my Polish ex-flatmate drop the phrase 'politically correct' (in English) into a Polish sentence.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #56 on: 19:22:00, 14-09-2008 » |
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Maybe just because it's the one that sounds most like the English phrase they're quoting? For Poles or Russians or whoever to be able to translate it properly, wouldn't Anglophones need to agree on what it meant?  |
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Baz
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« Reply #57 on: 19:25:00, 14-09-2008 » |
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Our problem is that when translating the phrase into English we seem to "come up" with two equally viable translations that in fact contradict each other. We are glad that the Member has perceived the double meaning! It is precisely the seeking out and facing up to contradiction that motivate the sincere and productive life is not it? It is not possible to argue about tastes not because there are many and each taste and taster differs from the others but because good taste is set in objective stone. So many assertions when considered closely and steadily lose their original meaning and often define themselves in this way altogether out of existence, even. ...as evidenced by the more colloquial (and familiar) translation of the same motto: "There's no accounting for taste". This now seems to have become almost identical in meaning with the old adage "There's nowt so queer as folk". Baz |
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #58 on: 19:44:33, 14-09-2008 » |
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Maybe just because it's the one that sounds most like the English phrase they're quoting?
That makes it no less ironic. There are loads of cognates in Russian that mean something quite different from their English or French equivalents. |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #59 on: 20:25:13, 14-09-2008 » |
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That makes it no less ironic. There are loads of cognates in Russian that mean something quite different from their English or French equivalents.
I'm sure that's right - the irony is built-in, and it's rarely pronounced without a smirk |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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