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Milly Jones
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« Reply #225 on: 18:15:58, 16-09-2008 » |
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Richard, as capitalism has got us unto this mess and seemingly cannot now extricate us, what do you think the answer is? What would you have us do to alleviate the situation?
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HtoHe
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« Reply #226 on: 18:35:04, 16-09-2008 » |
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governments, after all, do not have any money
No more than banks have, ah; Well, that's true, although most people willingly put money in banks whereas the Treasury has to use the law to extract funds from taxpayers, so there is at leat some difference, at least in principle. Just a few points of clarification, ah. People might 'willingly' put money in banks but, to touch on one of my later points, the choice is extremely limited. Even pensions and benefits have to be paid into bank accounts now. I agree that there are few alternatives beyond a rather unlikely return to the pre-1970 situation - and it's true that even before then the payers of wages and salaries needed banks - but the stranglehold of the banks over the finances of ordinary people is relatively new. I can remember when most people got paid in cash and took their savings to the post office, or the building society or, indeed, had no direct dealings whatsoever with these institutions. The Direct Debit is a new development by which you give a third party the right to raid your account. Another generation and we will be saying customers chose this method of payment just as we are now invited to believe people chose to have current accounts and credit cards. Those of us with long memories and a cynical turn of mind know that these were hardly free choices for large numbers of people. I don't think that it's as simple as that. Wealthy people such as Gates and Buffett have given away vast sums of money for the intended public good, but this has made precious little difference to the problems that you rightly highlight. I agree, but I think the reason even mightily wealthy people can't even scratch the surface is down to flaws "inherent in capitalism itself". The system thrives on boom & bust, obscene riches & even more obscene poverty. The current problems, as you rightly point out, arise from 'papering over the cracks'; refusing to acknowledge even the basic rules of the system. I suspect this is what Soros saw, and it was certainly being being pointed out by socialist economists whenever they heard the claim that the problem of boom and bust had been solved. I'm not an economist but I suspect what we're seeing now is a long overdue depression that's almost certainly been made worse by ever more desperate attempts to postpone it. Sorry, I seem to have made a mess of the formatting here. I hope you can work out what's what! |
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« Last Edit: 18:37:26, 16-09-2008 by HtoHe »
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #227 on: 18:37:04, 16-09-2008 » |
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Richard, as capitalism has got us unto this mess and seemingly cannot now extricate us, what do you think the answer is? What would you have us do to alleviate the situation?
This was not a sarcastic post - I'm genuinely interested..... |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #228 on: 19:23:15, 16-09-2008 » |
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Meanwhile the auction of Damian Hirst's artworks proceeds apace, with £9.6 million being paid for the shark in the tank, and an estimated total taking of £100 million. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7610000/newsid_7618500/7618512.stmIf ever we needed proof that the world's going mad, this is surely it - or am I alone in finding it obscene that the money being paid out for these items is substantially from the very same organisations whose greed lies at the root of much of the trouble we're seeing now? |
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Lord Byron
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« Reply #229 on: 19:44:02, 16-09-2008 » |
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capitalism works very well, but you get extremes, so we have intervention and state regulation, what has gone on this time is a lack of regulation and intervention to reduce a bubble in size so when it does burst, that is not so hard to take
it is interesting to see the bank of england intervene, i suppose under a democracy, your unable to have true capitalism as people just end up voting very left or right wing to oppose market downturns ?
I went to the john ruskin museum recently and it is interesting to be reminded about just how ruthless and wicked society once was, with unrestrained capitalism, he encouraged the workers to organise, get into unions etc.
Nobody writes into the newspaper saying 'i am being paid too much and made far far too much on the sale of my house, please tax me more', you just get winners and losers.
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Antheil
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« Reply #230 on: 19:55:56, 16-09-2008 » |
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Meanwhile the auction of Damian Hirst's artworks proceeds apace, with £9.6 million being paid for the shark in the tank, and an estimated total taking of £100 million
If ever we needed proof that the world's going mad, this is surely it - or am I alone in finding it obscene that the money being paid out for these items is substantially from the very same organisations whose greed lies at the root of much of the trouble we're seeing now?
I've just encased a leg of lamb in formaldehyde and lemons. I call it "Taking the Pith" and it will be auctioned at Abercwmsoch next month by Sothebys. I think (being serious) what we are all worried about (although we care about the global outcome of course to which I have no answer) is our personal/family circumstances. How many of us have grandma/pa/aunt/uncle/cousin on fixed income, worrying about paying fuel bills, being sent to prison for non-payment of Council Tax, living off Tesco's Value baked beans? A very gloomy outcome awaits us I think in the future. As for the housing market. Gloom! House prices falling. Well, I think that is good because they have been sensationally inflated for far too long. |
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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Lord Byron
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« Reply #231 on: 20:02:17, 16-09-2008 » |
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Perhaps people will take relatives in ? Perhaps this will produce the 'larger' family again ?, in my family, the young often help out the old, who help out the young with babysitting etc. I think this just shows, nobody is an island, we need to co-operate as well as compete. As to housing, i have to admit, having been to coniston water, and camped there, i love my tent ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coniston_WaterI am going to camp / walk through switzerland and italy next year, i think one can spend a life trying to 'play it safe' but it does end, and i for one, want to have some fun, see some things, before it ends. A few people are very rich, and it is nice to see at least a few artists gaining cash from their work while they are alive, it is not my kind of art and i find free galleries far better value ( tee hee ) but who are we to argue ? I suppose 'family go to tescos to buy weekly shop' does not make much of a headline, so these extremes are more likely,in the paper. |
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #232 on: 20:16:20, 16-09-2008 » |
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Perhaps people will take relatives in ?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! House full! No more room at the Inn.  |
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ernani
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« Reply #233 on: 20:19:24, 16-09-2008 » |
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Isn't it interesting that the the investment banks, so tied to the neoliberal mantra of deregulation and low taxes, are the first to run screaming to government for help when their naked greed, sorry 'investment in the derivatives 'market'', is exposed for the racket that it is...  |
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Lord Byron
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« Reply #234 on: 20:23:30, 16-09-2008 » |
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Perhaps people will take relatives in ?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! House full! No more room at the Inn. lol, so true at yours, mind you,they may start camping in the garden,pmsl |
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Lord Byron
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« Reply #235 on: 20:23:55, 16-09-2008 » |
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Isn't it interesting that the the investment banks, so tied to the neoliberal mantra of deregulation and low taxes, are the first to run screaming to government for help when their naked greed, sorry 'investment in the derivatives 'market'', is exposed for the racket that it is... TRUE 'we demand free market INTERVENTION, er please !' lol |
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #236 on: 20:27:21, 16-09-2008 » |
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So should we feel sorry for the City bankers who definitely acted as in Ernani's post above, now that thousands of them are being made redundant and are leaving their offices in droves today clutching cardboard boxes after having cleared their desks? Interesting point I think. They've been hoisted by their own petard. That doesn't alter the fact that they're now in the same boat as the rest of us.
I'm a bit ambivalent about this. On the one hand I'm angry that the system they worked on has brought us all to this, but on the other I sympathise with their plight as much as for anyone else who stands to lose livelihood and home.
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BobbyZ
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« Reply #237 on: 20:28:12, 16-09-2008 » |
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Meanwhile the auction of Damian Hirst's artworks proceeds apace, with £9.6 million being paid for the shark in the tank, and an estimated total taking of £100 million. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7610000/newsid_7618500/7618512.stmIf ever we needed proof that the world's going mad, this is surely it - or am I alone in finding it obscene that the money being paid out for these items is substantially from the very same organisations whose greed lies at the root of much of the trouble we're seeing now? Also meanwhile, Manchester United go into action tomorrow with AIG emblazoned on their chests and Liverpool and Newcastle United football clubs still expect several hundred million pound takeovers to fund the first one hundred million pound transfer fee and first two hundred thousand pound a week player. |
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Dreams, schemes and themes
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increpatio
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« Reply #238 on: 20:30:50, 16-09-2008 » |
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capitalism works very well, but you get extremes, so we have intervention and state regulation, what has gone on this time is a lack of regulation and intervention to reduce a bubble in size so when it does burst, that is not so hard to take
I thought you were talking about the art market there. My wouldn't it be funny if an art market crash caused a global recession  |
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increpatio
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« Reply #239 on: 20:31:52, 16-09-2008 » |
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Meanwhile the auction of Damian Hirst's artworks proceeds apace, with £9.6 million being paid for the shark in the tank, and an estimated total taking of £100 million. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7610000/newsid_7618500/7618512.stmIf ever we needed proof that the world's going mad, this is surely it - or am I alone in finding it obscene that the money being paid out for these items is substantially from the very same organisations whose greed lies at the root of much of the trouble we're seeing now? |
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