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thompson1780
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« Reply #15 on: 13:06:16, 02-09-2008 » |
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And at the end of it all, what is the 'So What?'
If a Rock critic finds she hates opera, so what?
If a Rock critic finds she loves opera, so what?
If an opera critic finds he/she loves rock, so what?
If an opera critic finds he/she hates rock, so what?
None of it has any major meaning or any real point - an individual's experiences from which no general conclusions can be drawn. The only possible 'So What' is that it makes us reconsider our own positions and open our own minds to a wider set of experiences than we would normally be open to.
But perhaps not given the lack of openness in the author's thinking. I got the impression that she was looking for faults, and for ways to trot out old cliches, with only the merest nod towards what she did like (the am-dram nature of Buxton).
Please tell me what is wrong with trying to excel at something?
Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #16 on: 13:25:44, 02-09-2008 » |
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The Grauniad isn't a serious newspaper any longer - hasn't been for several years. It's simply a mouthpiece for Nu Labour, and thus for Cullcha Minister Margaret Hodge. Wilfey Smiff would be proud of her!! I hope, in the spirit of checks and balances, their opera critic has been sent to a rock gig or two Truth is stranger than fiction, Lady DHS! Only a couple of months ago the Grauniad did a stunt in which they sent their sports commentators to arts events, and the arts "commentators" to sports events. Fairly symptomatic of the level of writing in the Grauniad these days. Meanwhile Nick Cohen, and Martin Kettle spew their poison under the watchful eye of the Chatham House protege Simon Tisdall (Deputy Editor). If you switched the graphic design, the content would be indistinguishable from the Daily Mail. Bell & Rowson are probably the last remaining reasons for looking at it - yet their cartoons are at perilous variance with the Pentagon-loyal persiflage filling the rest of the pages  Please tell me what is wrong with trying to excel at something? Oh, Tommo, dear Tommo - you must learn to talk discreetly about these things, which must be only whispered on long walks over large heaths. "Excellence", "achievement", "ability", "intelligence" - the Margaret Hoxha Thought Police will have you banged-up for those crimes, and you'll never get your fiddle back. But after a month in Room 101, and a bit of mind-reprogramming, you'll find that you love thrash metal, you think David Miliband is a talented and fair-minded man, and We Have Always Been At War With East-Asia. And instead of the violin, you can have a tin whistle (an authentically proletarian instrument)... and if you behave, you might be considered for a concertina.  You'll find it's so much easier to cooperate. Really, you will, Tommo... |
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« Last Edit: 13:27:40, 02-09-2008 by Reiner Torheit »
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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...trj...
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« Reply #17 on: 14:27:40, 02-09-2008 » |
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I think, underneath all the obligatory Guardian reverse snobbery, there are one or two serious points being made here that anyone new to opera should be allowed to ask. The principal one seems to me: the music's lovely and everything, but why is this all being staged in the first place? I've always had difficulty with opera as an art form, and I've not yet satisfactorily resolved this question for myself - after having seen plenty of operas of different periods, styles and venues. It almost always comes across to me as less than the sum of its parts. With respect to Eotvos's Love and Other Demons, one of the operas Burton saw, I came away with the very strong feeling that it would work better in recording, since there was a lot of very attractive detail in the music in the service of a slight plot and a distracting production.
Now, I realise that the fault may lie with me - plenty of people with cultural sensibilities that I respect get a lot of pleasure from opera - and that I've not yet found the 'key' that unlocks the genre for me. Burton could have used a little more humility and self-knowledge in writing her piece, but I don't think the questions she asks should be too easily dismissed.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #18 on: 15:20:15, 02-09-2008 » |
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Please tell me what is wrong with trying to excel at something?
Blimey, Tommo, you're so twentieth century! You're talking as if Maestro had never happened. But seriously: I don't know what's supposed to be so interesting about having journalism written by people who by their own admission know nothing about their subject. (It's not as if the UK press's pages are so stuffed with informed arts writing that they have spare capacity to set aside a line or two for an occasional stunt like this.) If that's what I want to read I can choose from thousands of blogs. (Present company very much excepted of course.) The least likely outcome of an article like this is for anyone's "key" to be turned. |
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thompson1780
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« Reply #19 on: 15:31:02, 02-09-2008 » |
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Blimey, Tommo, you're so twentieth century! Thanks Richard! I like getting compliments  Tommo |
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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...trj...
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« Reply #20 on: 15:33:57, 02-09-2008 » |
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Well, no, fair enough - but I don't think that was the point of the article either. I thought it was an "Opera, what's that all about, eh?" kind of thing. Which I admit is utterly tedious and the sort of thing the Guardian churn out by numbers every other week but, nevertheless, in this case I think it did still touch on some things perhaps worth talking about. A shame it didn't go on to talk about them itself.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #21 on: 15:40:54, 02-09-2008 » |
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I thought it was an "Opera, what's that all about, eh?" kind of thing. ... to which the answer apparently is I think people must attend opera in the same way they introduce roughage to their diet - because they ought to, rather than because they want to. What use is that to anyone? Edit: what's crucial here as far as I'm concerned is that an "intelligent" newspaper should be concerned to challenge rather than to confirm cultural prejudices. |
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« Last Edit: 15:51:20, 02-09-2008 by richard barrett »
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...trj...
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« Reply #22 on: 15:48:20, 02-09-2008 » |
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None at all, but I include that under my banner of 'obligatory Guardian inverse snobbery'. Or, better, it comes under the rubric that everything in the Guardian's culture pages (at least) must be written to cater for a carefully defined demographic with absolutely defined, and completely rigid, tastes, preferences and prejudices. Don't get me wrong, pretty much everything the Guardian prints on music isn't worth wrapping chips in, but since we're all agreed on that why not lock the thread now  |
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #23 on: 16:01:06, 02-09-2008 » |
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Now, I realise that the fault may lie with me - plenty of people with cultural sensibilities that I respect get a lot of pleasure from opera - and that I've not yet found the 'key' that unlocks the genre for me. Burton could have used a little more humility and self-knowledge in writing her piece, but I don't think the questions she asks should be too easily dismissed.
Well, I used to really dislike opera, and classical vocal music in general - it was particularly the sound of operatically-trained voices that put me off (I'm still not very fond of Mozart operas or bel canto). But even then I think I had the humility to realise that I might be wrong about it, and sure enough, all it took was a few really good experiences to turn me into an enthusiast. I'm not sure about the idea of 'keys' unlocking the genre. I think it's more a question of getting emotionally involved with a really great vocal performance: when you're completely in the palm of the singer's hand, and hanging on their every note, you don't notice (or mind) the plot holes and the dodgy costumes any more! And, of course, not every listener will agree on what constitutes a great performance, or a great voice... One thing I've found is that sitting as close as possible to the singer can really humanise the experience - it's sometimes difficult not to be emotionally involved when you're that close to someone actually capable of making these sounds! (now now, no double entendres...!) On the other hand, I couldn't honestly say I've ever come away thinking I'd witnessed a great production (from the point of view of staging and design), at least not in the theatre, although a few of them have been very engaging. I do sometimes wonder if such a thing exists in the real world... |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #24 on: 16:08:17, 02-09-2008 » |
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I'm not sure about the idea of 'keys' unlocking the genre. I think it's more a question of getting emotionally involved with a really great vocal performance That's exactly what I would mean by a "key" actually. |
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #25 on: 16:13:52, 02-09-2008 » |
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Her drinking habits give the game away - to her, going to a 'gig' is a night out. You drink, you eat, you smoke ...you chat with your friends, you (shudder) text people who aren't there... and you listen to a bit of music. ...if you're sober enough and not too busy nattering I know people like that. Personally I can't see the point in spending all that money on a ticket if you're not going to give the band 100% of your attention. |
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #26 on: 16:22:48, 02-09-2008 » |
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Well, the writer has been to a number of very different operas, whether or not she is deemed to 'know what she's talking about' by those supposedly more enlightened. She is rather dismissive of some of it, just as are various people here of her. I don't see why her view (one which I've encountered amongst students, and encourage then to articulate) is any less valid than that of anyone here or anywhere else.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #27 on: 16:37:41, 02-09-2008 » |
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As far as chatting, drinking, etc at concerts is concerned, that was quite common for some 19th century and earlier concert-goers.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #28 on: 16:45:23, 02-09-2008 » |
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As far as chatting, drinking, etc at concerts is concerned, that was quite common for some 19th century and earlier concert-goers.
Yes, but time should move on.....what most musical and dramatic performances require to be successful is an audience totally focused on what is happening on stage. I've written about this elsewhere, but some performances I've attended recently have been made all but intolerable by the behaviour of the audience. |
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
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richard barrett
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« Reply #29 on: 16:47:37, 02-09-2008 » |
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Personally I can't see the point in spending all that money on a ticket if you're not going to give the band 100% of your attention.
Something that maybe has potential as a subject for discussion is the "hearing the words" issue which is mentioned in that article. It's a truism that the words are often obscured in opera (and often they're foreign too, which heaven forfend!), and for me this actually is a problem. But surely the same is often true of other kinds of musical performance too. Would you be able to work out what all the words were at a rock gig? (if you didn't know the songs in advance) Obviously there are genres, like various of the flavours of metal, where the answer is pretty clear. But in general? |
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