|
BobbyZ
|
 |
« Reply #45 on: 22:44:37, 02-09-2008 » |
|
I'm coming to this thread a bit late but think that strina's reply 6 is very pertinent. I always thought that it would have been better to have a youth orchestra playing the Rite of Spring at Glastonbury rather than the attempt they made with Die Walkure a few years back. Or a string quartet in the acoustic tent at Womad. The Guardian article itself is simply a very poor piece of journalism that hardly ranks above Alex James extollling classical music in a laughable fashion in the Sun today. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/music/article1634750.eceAs for the discussion about the classically trained voice, that was the subject of the first topic I ever started on this forum http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=177.15Strange to read how my views have moved on in the 18 months since then too. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Dreams, schemes and themes
|
|
|
|
perfect wagnerite
|
|
« Reply #46 on: 23:09:19, 02-09-2008 » |
|
I'm only just catching up with this, and looking at the way in which Laura Barton in the Guardian and Alex James in the Sun address their particular audience. Alex James is pretty cringe-making at times: Anyone who wants to get into music should buy Rossini’s overture to the opera William Tell. You can’t listen to it and not smile. There’s classical for every occasion.
Tchaikovsky’s Romeo And Juliet is great lovemaking music, better than Foo Fighters. You’re talking a different class of shag.
Beethoven’s great too, but that’s more your cooking music. Buy Beethoven and you’ll be a whizz in the kitchen. But as a piece of journalism I'd say the Guardian piece is much, much worse. Both trot out cliches - but James is saying, in effect, try something new; Barton is just regurgitating the old lame prejudices. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
|
|
|
|
Don Basilio
|
|
« Reply #47 on: 23:19:45, 02-09-2008 » |
|
I struggle with symphonies. I can get hold of a long piece of music if there is a plot, however silly. I find "programme music" very off putting - why write a tone poem where I can never work out if the basson is the voice of longing and the viola the abandoned princess. Why not write a proper opera, I think.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #48 on: 23:53:18, 02-09-2008 » |
|
I would have thought the idea behind this article is reasonably clear: get someone to go and hear a range of operas who has no real experience of opera as a medium and whose sympathies lie within very different musical traditions. And see what it means/communicates/signifies to them. The same could be done with someone from a non-Western background with a similar level of unfamiliarity. Dismissing such a project on the grounds that she demonstrates some ignorance of the medium seems ridiculous; the idea is to consider what else opera can mean to those outside of the relatively narrow few who partake of it on a regular basis. Of course there are going to be areas of ignorance with respect to knowing what is the music, what is the production, differences of priorities in terms of text/music from those conventionally upheld by the musically educated, and so on and so forth. But if one accepts that opera is not so much a hallowed art form whose reception amongst the (often self-selecting) few is all that matters (a view I wholly reject) but a range of cultural documents that deserve consideration from beyond the (extremely narrow) perspective of 'musical appreciation' (itself thoroughly a project of a precious bourgeois world), then I think such endeavours are in principle valuable. I can think of many who would be much ruder about the medium - which might include a lot of young people. Sometimes theatre, music, dance are put on in prisons; these projects are usually rated highly when they garner a positive response from the audience in question, but I can't believe that this sort of response is universally the case. The views of the prisoners are just as worth hearing if they are negative as if they are positive. And the same goes for any other group of people, or individuals.
In terms of newspapers offering challenging views, the range of approbrium - sometimes quite vicious - experienced within this very thread suggest that it may indeed have achieved such an end. Is classical music really so precious that it has to generate near-psychotic displays of rage when someone dismisses it (those filled with venomous hatred towards her will find there's an awful lot more people they are going to have to hate), and requires the whipping up of a chorus of disdain in order to trash anyone who transgresses the sacred boundaries of how one is supposed to talk about it? I'm not by any means referring to everyone or most people here (and this phenomenon is in no sense unique to this board); but for a few, it seems to have touched a raw nerve. Otherwise, why be so bothered about an article that will probably have been forgotten in a couple of weeks?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
harmonyharmony
|
|
« Reply #49 on: 00:08:29, 03-09-2008 » |
|
the range of approbrium - sometimes quite vicious
near-psychotic displays of rage
venomous hatred
These are rather strong words. I recommend that you report the posts that show such tendencies to the moderators. I would not like to see such posts on this board but for some reason (it could be the after-effects of this migraine) I can't seem to see any posts that fulfil these criteria. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
|
|
|
Robert Dahm
|
|
« Reply #50 on: 01:05:35, 03-09-2008 » |
|
I would have thought the idea behind this article is reasonably clear: get someone to go and hear a range of operas who has no real experience of opera as a medium and whose sympathies lie within very different musical traditions. And see what it means/communicates/signifies to them. The same could be done with someone from a non-Western background with a similar level of unfamiliarity. Dismissing such a project on the grounds that she demonstrates some ignorance of the medium seems ridiculous; the idea is to consider what else opera can mean to those outside of the relatively narrow few who partake of it on a regular basis. The reaction she had to opera is, I'm sure, the same reaction that many people would have. That (as far as I'm concerned) is not what is distasteful about the article. My difficulty stems from the fact that the 'experiment' is, from the outset, a challenge to opera. The onus has been placed on opera to make her - somebody who has always found classical music 'a cold and distant land'. This is, as an experiment, patently absurd. Do we see articles written by people who don't like sport about how they had a bad time at the (also heavily subsidised) cricket? This isn't so much journalism as it is character assassination. Is classical music really so precious that it has to generate near-psychotic displays of rage when someone dismisses it...? I wouldn't have phrased it quite like that, but I think that classical music is valuable enough to defend 'tooth and claw', as it were. (and I suspect that you might, too...). But I don't think that this: ...(those filled with venomous hatred towards her will find there's an awful lot more people they are going to have to hate), and requires the whipping up of a chorus of disdain in order to trash anyone who transgresses the sacred boundaries of how one is supposed to talk about it? I'm not by any means referring to everyone or most people here (and this phenomenon is in no sense unique to this board); but for a few, it seems to have touched a raw nerve. Otherwise, why be so bothered about an article that will probably have been forgotten in a couple of weeks?
necessarily follows. The criticism of the article has little to do with transgression of sacred boundaries. Nor, for that matter, does the article have much to do with cataloguing what it means/communicates/signifies, despite what I'm sure were the very best of intentions. I'm sure I would agree with your assessment 100%, Ian, if the article had actually been what it purported/hoped to be. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Reiner Torheit
|
|
« Reply #51 on: 06:56:32, 03-09-2008 » |
|
In terms of newspapers offering challenging views, the range of approbrium - sometimes quite vicious - experienced within this very thread suggest that it may indeed have achieved such an end. Is classical music really so precious that it has to generate near-psychotic displays of rage when someone dismisses it (those filled with venomous hatred towards her Crap. I thought you left this forum, vowing never to return, banging the door behind you, and then writing abusive insults about the forum all over the internet? I see M&S is as quiet as a tomb at the moment - presumably because you've driven everyone there away? If anyone is writing "vicious" posts here, Commissar - it's YOU. And they're unwanted. Very unwanted. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06:59:39, 03-09-2008 by Reiner Torheit »
|
Logged
|
"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
|
|
|
|
Reiner Torheit
|
|
« Reply #52 on: 07:06:39, 03-09-2008 » |
|
Plus ca change...
... however if this Bill* shall pass... I hope our Italian Operas will fall the First Sacrifice, as they not only carry great Sums of Money out of the Kingdom, but soften and enervate the Minds of the People. It is observable of the antient Romans that they did not admit any effeminate Musick, Singing or Dancing upon their stage, till Luxury had corrupted their Morals, and the Loss of Liberty follow'd soon after. If therefore it should be thought necessary to lay any further Resistance upon the most useful Sort of Dramatical Entertainments, then the worst ought to certainly receive no Encouragement.
"The Craftsman", London, June 4th 1737
* referring to a Parliamentary Bill tabled to restrain the Liberty Of The Stage
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
|
|
|
|
perfect wagnerite
|
|
« Reply #53 on: 07:20:00, 03-09-2008 » |
|
. Dismissing such a project on the grounds that she demonstrates some ignorance of the medium seems ridiculous; the idea is to consider what else opera can mean to those outside of the relatively narrow few who partake of it on a regular basis.
There's ignorance and there's wilful ignorance. What I took from the article was a condescending, closed-minded smugness, and a refusal or inability to go beyond the cliches. There are genuine questions to be asked about why people are moved by opera, to which those people would be able to provide worthwhile and interesting answers. This piece was just bad journalism. But if one accepts that opera is not so much a hallowed art form whose reception amongst the (often self-selecting) few is all that matters
Self-selecting? In what way? Explanation needed. In terms of newspapers offering challenging views, the range of approbrium - sometimes quite vicious - experienced within this very thread suggest that it may indeed have achieved such an end. Is classical music really so precious that it has to generate near-psychotic displays of rage when someone dismisses it (those filled with venomous hatred towards her will find there's an awful lot more people they are going to have to hate), and requires the whipping up of a chorus of disdain in order to trash anyone who transgresses the sacred boundaries of how one is supposed to talk about it? I'm not by any means referring to everyone or most people here (and this phenomenon is in no sense unique to this board); but for a few, it seems to have touched a raw nerve. Otherwise, why be so bothered about an article that will probably have been forgotten in a couple of weeks?
Well, I see quite a lot of anger here, but reacting strongly against an ignorant and ill-informed article that trashes something that one cares about is hardly psychotic, is it? If you're looking for psychosis, I'd suggest trying the hatred of high-culture (for want of a better word) that seems to me to be rampant in our political and media (and even creative) culture, of which this article is a fairly typical manifestation. There's a lot of it about. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
|
|
|
|
oliver sudden
|
|
« Reply #54 on: 09:22:36, 03-09-2008 » |
|
Do we see articles written by people who don't like sport about how they had a bad time at the (also heavily subsidised) cricket? To be fair, I think the Guardian had one of those too.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #55 on: 09:56:58, 03-09-2008 » |
|
Robert: I'm not trying to make any particular claims for the article, just think that the principle of printing such things doesn't seem unreasonable. If you look for the response to opera, or any other high culture, from someone who is not traditionally 'learned' in those things, the response is likely to be, well, unlearned. And maybe focused more on aspects of the work/experience that others might find ephemeral. But it is important at least sometimes to consider what it might mean and signify to others, I think - I do think it says something what it does in those respects to her (and her responses to all the operas aren't uniform - she seems to be more taken with Dido than some of the others, says that 'the music is quite luscious' in Figaro, even if finding the whole experience rather long-winded (I would agree with her in the case of that particular opera)). The article is indeed a 'challenge' to opera, but I don't have a problem with that - it's not a medium I think should be taken for granted (and I'd say the same about contemporary classical music or whatever). Many universalist claims have been made both past and present for such musical traditions; in light of the fact that clearly many of them do not seem to have such an effect upon a large number of people. I really don't feel an inclination to defend classical music 'tooth and claw' on the whole, no; I'm more interested in considering its varying meanings for a wider constituency, when they encounter it. Perhaps that's more of the view of a cultural sociologist than a traditional musician, but I don't really mind that. 'Character assassination' seems a very strong term for what's a moderately light-hearted, slightly bitchy, article. And she didn't advocate burning down opera houses....  pw: I don't really see 'hatred of high culture' so much as a certain dethroning of the privileged position it once had in wider consciousness (perhaps even those who didn't partake of it where prepared to concede it a certain respect). And I do think that's inevitable in a more multicultural society, arguably one in which the higher classes similarly do not receive the same degree of respect, as high culture has traditionally been their pastime. There is a serious and sophisticated scholarly tradition looking more critically at the status and canonisation that has been accorded high culture and asking whether the often exalted claims made for it really stand up; also whether it at least sometimes embodies rather more reactionary social principles and ideas within its fabric. On the whole, I'm not often in wholehearted sympathy with many of the conclusions of this type of work, but I also don't think the clock can be turned back, nor should it. Reiner: I rest my case. Do you really think articles like this constitute 'class war'? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #56 on: 10:00:28, 03-09-2008 » |
|
For the third time: an "intelligent" newspaper should be concerned to challenge rather than to confirm cultural prejudices. Shouldn't it?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
oliver sudden
|
|
« Reply #57 on: 10:01:13, 03-09-2008 » |
|
Yes, this déjà vu just keeps on coming back, doesn't it?  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #58 on: 10:02:10, 03-09-2008 » |
|
It's not over until the, er, fat lady sings.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ruby2
|
|
« Reply #59 on: 10:02:44, 03-09-2008 » |
|
To be fair, that is hugely dumbed down for the audience - possibly not quite enough. After all, there are a few long words in there - some of them might struggle with 'colonised'. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
|
|
|
|
