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The Radio 3 Boards > The Music Boards > The Opera House > Someone who doesn't like opera goes to lots of opera and writes about it
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Author Topic: Someone who doesn't like opera goes to lots of opera and writes about it  (Read 1940 times)
Ted Ryder
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« Reply #30 on: 16:48:23, 02-09-2008 »
 Of course it is not just opera. The television editor of Radio Times, Alison Graham,  opined a couple of weeks ago that theatre plays should not be shown on TV " ---- they are yawningly talky and boring because everyone has brittle conversations with everyone else. It (David Hare's "My Zinc Bed") is mannered and stilted and nothing actually happens.It quotes Conrad. Can you imagine them getting away with that lot in "The Bill"? " Miss Graham states that the theatre is a crushing bore, performances too loud, you have to dress up and you can't get out. . Why not, says our Alison, stay home with your feet up and watch "Heartbeat" which actually has to work to attract an audience but of course  with plays you don't have to try , after all this is "Theatre"
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #31 on: 16:49:03, 02-09-2008 »
Quote from: richard barrett on 16:08:17, 02-09-2008
That's exactly what I would mean by a "key" actually.

OK, let's see what happens if I say "tomato"  Wink


One of the things I meant to say before (but didn't) was that I think this article reeks of the kind of reverse snobbery about classical music that is rife in our (British) media. As some have said, no surprise really, but - Swan_Knight's tweedy attitude aside - I think there's much more of this around than there is actual snobbery about other types of music among classical-music listeners (and particularly practitioners).

And, when I go to rock gigs in small venues (as I do fairly regularly in Glasgow) I feel there's a lot more snobbery (of a sort) among the audiences there than I have encountered at most classical and opera performances. Often very good support bands are given minimal attention, with people shouting over them and ignoring them completely, perhaps because it's a slightly different sub-genre to the band they actually came to hear, or perhaps because they're there for the chat more than the music, I don't know. Obviously I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush, but it is a thing I've noticed is quite widespread...
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #32 on: 16:52:08, 02-09-2008 »
Quote from: richard barrett on 16:47:37, 02-09-2008
Something that maybe has potential as a subject for discussion is the "hearing the words" issue which is mentioned in that article. It's a truism that the words are often obscured in opera (and often they're foreign too, which heaven forfend!), and for me this actually is a problem. But surely the same is often true of other kinds of musical performance too. Would you be able to work out what all the words were at a rock gig? (if you didn't know the songs in advance) Obviously there are genres, like various of the flavours of metal, where the answer is pretty clear. But in general?

Quite. I'm afraid I can almost never make out a single word of most pop/rock songs live, or even on record a lot of the time! But it only ever seems to be opera that's criticised for that...
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martle
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« Reply #33 on: 16:57:05, 02-09-2008 »
Quote from: stuart macrae on 16:01:06, 02-09-2008
I'm not sure about the idea of 'keys' unlocking the genre. I think it's more a question of getting emotionally involved with a really great vocal performance: when you're completely in the palm of the singer's hand, and hanging on their every note, you don't notice (or mind) the plot holes and the dodgy costumes any more!

I was much the same, Stuart. Didn't get opera at all until I went to a few with someone who *really* understood what it's all about and I was then hooked (I was about 32 at that point - a hell of a waste of time prior to that, eh?). All the stuff I thought was dodgy or cringe-making (or just boring) before paled into insignificance in the light of the glories. But the 'key' for me wasn't vocal performance, it was the way they are (can be) constructed, and the dizzying techniques of narrative that composers have employed over the centuries. It made me want to write one, so I did.  Cheesy
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thompson1780
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« Reply #34 on: 17:22:52, 02-09-2008 »
Quote from: Ian Pace on 16:22:48, 02-09-2008
Well, the writer has been to a number of very different operas, whether or not she is deemed to 'know what she's talking about' by those supposedly more enlightened. She is rather dismissive of some of it, just as are various people here of her. I don't see why her view (one which I've encountered amongst students, and encourage then to articulate) is any less valid than that of anyone here or anywhere else.

Well that's fair, to a point.

I guess my problem with her view (apart from it being one individual's view and therefore not for generalisation) is that she seems to tar the whole of opera with her specific experiences.

She complains about the impatient and rude people at the bar, and the snotty woman at Glyndbourne - not necessarily common to all opera
She complains about the heat inducing sleepiness - not necessarily common to all opera
She complains about production aspects (Diana hair) - not necessarily common to all opera
She complains about a specific adaptation (Marques losing its ripeness when you reduce it to speech alone) - subjective and not common to all opera  (And comparing a book with descriptive prose with an adaptation that takes its narrative plot is perhaps like comparing apples and oranges, and an unfair criticism?)

She complains about Samson's droning and about repetition.  Now, these are points to tackle.  Samson is supposed to moan if he's lamenting something.  What is wrong with opera portraying emotions that are not normally portrayed in other musical forms?  And repetition is a bit kettle and pot - the words may be repeated in opera, but the music for each repetition is often very different.  Whereas in rock, I am sure words are very different for the musically very similar choruses....?

What is she reviewing music, or lyrics?

In the end it is a personal judgement.  I'm fine with her having her views, just as she states them.

I'm not fine with them being presented / positioned as a justification for why rock is better than opera.  In the end I don't understand why a newspaper posts a personal view with no general meaning for all of us.  It's not news, and it's not reporting.

Tommo
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richard barrett
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« Reply #35 on: 17:30:10, 02-09-2008 »
I still don't really "get" a lot of opera, particularly Italian opera from Rossini onwards. The first operas I really appreciated were Monteverdi and Rameau, and, from the other direction, much more recent works like Penderecki's Devils of Loudun. Having tried off and on with Wagner for ages it finally "clicked" with me about three years ago. I always wanted to like it, which is one difference between me and the typist whose article we're discussing. I don't think her blanket dismissiveness (largely, as Tommo says, based on superficial and peripheral aspects of the performances she attended) is in any way comparable with the treatment the article is receiving on this thread, which is already several times the length of the article and would probably be a lot more use to anyone who might be interested in the subject matter.

As I said before: an "intelligent" newspaper should be concerned to challenge rather than to confirm cultural prejudices. Shouldn't it?
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #36 on: 17:39:49, 02-09-2008 »
Am I right in thinking that this article comes from G2 rather than the main paper itself?
G2 has never really aimed at anything above entertainment IIRC (it's been a while since I cancelled my subscription and I really only miss keeping vaguely up to date with news, Steve Bell (though not as much as Dix (was very disappointed when they stopped printing 'Roll up Roll up')), and the crossword (somehow it's more exciting when you have a built-in deadline rather than working from a book)).

Anyway, the articles of this sort that I find most interesting is when a neophyte goes to an event with an 'old hand' who helps prepare them for what they're about to see/hear/experience but also acts as a sounding board after the event. I was going to say more but I can't really think properly today so I'll stop there.
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Antheil
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« Reply #37 on: 18:11:27, 02-09-2008 »
I don't "get" a lot of Opera either.  I loved the recent Henze's L'Upupa and I also love Lady Macbeth and Salome but I am persevering.

I just thought the article reinforced cliched stereotypes.  I think hh's suggestion was good and that would be more interesting to read.  Does anyone remember (it may have been BBC North-East) had a weekly blog from someone (I think in Newcastle) who was strictly rock'n'roll who had to listen to nothing but Classical music for a month?  That was quite revealing as his opinions slowly changed.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #38 on: 20:12:55, 02-09-2008 »
SAMSON is an oratorio  Angry

Not that facts matter to the Grauniad or the Class-War Cretins who write in it.  Might as well have called it "I hate posh stuck-up poncey music" - the drivel Miss Guardianista wrote would have been the same.  Anything to tear-down the outrageous bastions of priviledge, eh?
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burning dog
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« Reply #39 on: 21:13:37, 02-09-2008 »
Anyone who calls themselves a "rock chick" is definitely middle class in my book . Off with their heads!! 

edit - Or should that be Orff with their heads?
« Last Edit: 21:22:12, 02-09-2008 by burning dog » Logged
old1
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« Reply #40 on: 21:28:28, 02-09-2008 »
Why not suggest future productions that would move her? I drifted into opera from rock and the best from both genres can be spine-tingling. But there is also a lot that is ordinary or worse.
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #41 on: 21:34:36, 02-09-2008 »
Quote from: old1 on 21:28:28, 02-09-2008
Why not suggest future productions that would move her? I drifted into opera from rock and the best from both genres can be spine-tingling. But there is also a lot that is ordinary or worse.

As did I. I think someone who likes progressive rock will take quite naturally to Wagner.  I'm not sure about people who are into the genre that calls itself 'indie', though.
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Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #42 on: 21:51:13, 02-09-2008 »
Quote from: Swan_Knight on 21:34:36, 02-09-2008

As did I. I think someone who likes progressive rock will take quite naturally to Wagner.  I'm not sure about people who are into the genre that calls itself 'indie', though.

The Midsummer Marriage worked for me.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #43 on: 22:11:45, 02-09-2008 »
Quote from: Ian_Lawson on 21:51:13, 02-09-2008
Quote from: Swan_Knight on 21:34:36, 02-09-2008

As did I. I think someone who likes progressive rock will take quite naturally to Wagner.  I'm not sure about people who are into the genre that calls itself 'indie', though.

The Midsummer Marriage worked for me.

It certainly has the advantage of containing a few memorable bars from "Nessun dorma" which every football fan will know.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #44 on: 22:21:11, 02-09-2008 »
Quote from: old1 on 21:28:28, 02-09-2008
Why not suggest future productions that would move her?

Because the piece was "already written" before she even went to the performances.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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