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Poll
Question: Which is your favourite Sullivan opera?
The Sorcerer
HMS Pinafore
The Pirates of Penzance
Patience
Iolanthe
Princess Ida
The Mikado
Ruddigore
The Yeomen of the Guard
The Gondoliers
Utopia Ltd
The Grand Duke
Ivanhoe
Another not listed

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Author Topic: Ruddigore and the rest  (Read 3829 times)
Tony Watson
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« Reply #195 on: 21:25:39, 23-03-2008 »

I find this sort of thing is very hit and miss. I've just put my copy of the Philips Yeomen in my Windows computer and although all the information seems correct, I have trouble, as always, getting the album cover to appear. I'm using Windows media player and there's an icon to the left and above. I found that if I click on the left icon and choose "no visualization" and then choose "album art" a picture of the cover appears, though not before. Trying to get it appear at the top is harder. But suddenly it appeared after about five minutes.

The Mac computer always says it is accessing Gracewing whenever I put an audio CD in it but it never comes up with a picture of the cover.

Unimportant things in many ways but I just like things to work fully.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #196 on: 09:59:20, 24-03-2008 »

I think you only get the album cover if its available on itunes.

Certainly I didn't get the artwork.

I listened to Act 1 in bed yesterday evening, with dialogue, and yes it is a splendid work, isn't it?  The finale goes from comedy to drama and ends with a rousing stretta.  I notice that for those who inisist that Yeoman is a tragedy, Jack Point's contribution to the Act 1 Finale is in comic character ("Oh, woe is you? Your anguish sink!
      Oh, woe is me, I rather think!
      Oh, woe is me, I rather think!      
      Yes, woe is me, I rather think!
         Whate'er betide
         You are his bride,
         And I am left
         Alone - bereft!
      Yes, woe is me, I rather think!
      Yes, woe is me, I rather think!")

But it is not a jolly jape like the others, and Gilbert was quite wrong to cut the solos for Meryll and Shadbolt on the grounds they were inappropriate in a comic opera.

With dialogue I noticed a Welsh Shadbolt (and Wotan), German Fairfax (and Tamino) and Geordie Point (and Beckmesser.)
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A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #197 on: 11:11:08, 24-03-2008 »

I think you only get the album cover if its available on itunes. Jack Point's contribution to the Act 1 Finale is in comic character ("Oh, woe is you? Your anguish sink!
      Oh, woe is me, I rather think!
      Oh, woe is me, I rather think!      
      Yes, woe is me, I rather think!
         Whate'er betide
         You are his bride,
         And I am left
         Alone - bereft!
      Yes, woe is me, I rather think!
      Yes, woe is me, I rather think!")

It greatly depends on interpretation, though Smiley  I have seen exactly that passage done as a frenzied, hair-tearing, agonised moment "to self"  that closely resembles another opera jester who's just realised that he's got someone else's body in a sack.  It worked extremely well, with the walls of Point's world closing in on him with the Chorus's "Ooooooh!" that drowns-out his agonising and leads on into "All frenzied, frenzied with despair..."    And indeed, he IS frenzied (although the line refers, ostensibly, to Sir Richard Cholmondely).  And of course, no-one except Cholmondely and Elsie realise the second dimension of difficulty caused by Fayrfax's disappearance....

I'm not saying that it should be done that, or that it ever was at the Savoy Theatre...   but there's a darkly bleak side to Yeomen, and it can be played that way.

Sometimes I think YEOMEN is rather like the last episode of Blackadder IV...  you expect a comedy because they were comedies before...  and then you realise the entire thing is a ghastly nightmare from which there's no escape, and there's no laugh or how-de-doo,
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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« Reply #198 on: 12:51:44, 24-03-2008 »

  but there's a darkly bleak side to Yeomen, and it can be played that way.

Sometimes I think YEOMEN is rather like the last episode of Blackadder IV...  you expect a comedy because they were comedies before...  and then you realise the entire thing is a ghastly nightmare from which there's no escape, and there's no laugh or how-de-doo,

As a newcomer to Yeomen (indeed, to G and S), I couldn't agree more.  There seems to me to be a streak of real cruelty in the piece, and the character of Jack Point seems to me to be dark and desperate before one gets to the final denouement (that song about the life of a paid jester touches on a world of disillusion).  The comparison with Rigoletto seems very apt.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #199 on: 11:24:17, 25-03-2008 »

One item of a "real C19 opera" is a soprano/tenor love duet.

I can't remember one in The Yeoman.


True indeed, but Fayrfax's oath prevents one...  the dungeon scene "How say you, Maiden, will you wed//Temptation, Oh, Temptation.." is the closest we get to this.   

I was listening to Act 2 last night.  There is a perfectly adequate opportunity for a tenor/soprano duet when Elsie and Fairfax begin to fall in love after "Strange adventure".  We don't get one then.  I am sure Gilbert was very wary of sentimentality, which is why he eschews love duets at all.

However we get a far more complex dramatic situation in the quartet "When a woer goes a wooing."  Elise and Fairfax sing of their love, their two would-be partners, Phoebe and Point, reflect on their rejection.  The format is the same Gilbert and Sullivan used for the quintet "I rejoice that it's decided" in The Sorceror.  Individuals sing the stanzas, to variations of the basic melody to express their different positions, and they all join in a common refrain.

Very interesting.  Understated but giving you so much more than the conventional love duet.  And it is given prominence by being the last number in the work to be followed by spoken dialogue.
« Last Edit: 14:55:51, 25-03-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
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« Reply #200 on: 15:40:41, 25-03-2008 »

However we get a far more complex dramatic situation in the quartet "When a woer goes a wooing."  Elise and Fairfax sing of their love, their two would-be partners, Phoebe and Point, reflect on their rejection.

Very interesting.  Understated but giving you so much more than the conventional love duet.  And it is given prominence by being the last number in the work to be followed by spoken dialogue.

I agree. It's much more interesting when it develops this way and "When a Wooer" is a very poignant song. A love duet does happen at a similar stage in Pirates but I personally feel that the Frederic-Mabel scene goes on too long at such a point and it is sentimental. Perhaps Gilbert wanted to avoid that happening again. I think he was wrong to cut "A Laughing Boy" because he felt it held act one up. It's a shame "When Jealous Torments" (the actor was inexperienced) was also cut. It would have been great to hear Bryn Terfel singing it.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #201 on: 17:45:23, 25-03-2008 »

The duet in the Pirates is the most obvious send-up of the conventions of early C19 Italian opera, with the multi movement scena.  I think it is delicious, and Pirates is the next one I'm going to re-acquaint myself with.  (with which I am going to re-acquaint...)

The fact that the slow section is such an obviously parlour ballad as "O leave me not alone" adds to the joke, and allows one to enjoy as a lovely piece (Mabel Jane can still remember her pleasure in singing it) which in any other context would be unbearably slushy.

IMO.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #202 on: 21:27:52, 30-03-2008 »

The postman delivered a book yesterday: Oh Joy! Oh Rapture by Ian Bradley. It's about attitudes towards G&S, performances of it and its influence since the expiry of its copyright in 1961. What is particularly interesting is the different attitudes in Britain the USA.

In the chapter on the old D'Oyly Carte company, it reveals that chorus members who got a small solo to sing, or a few lines to say, got an extra 75p in the 1970s. That's about £4 today. The Gondoliers had to be dropped from their repertoire in about 1980, shortly before the company folded, because the scenery was worn out and the money just wasn't available to repair it.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #203 on: 21:52:16, 30-03-2008 »

Oh Joy! Oh Rapture by Ian Bradley.

Love the title.

That rather confirms my suspicion that the D'Oyly Carte were responsible for the iffy reputation of G&S in my early lifetime.

I did twice see the D'Oyly Carte in my lifetime: both times at the Princess Theatre, Torquay,  (Comrade Pace's nearest large stage.)  The Gondoliers when I was 7, and The Pirates when I was c17 on an outing with, blush, shame, embarrassment, with the Honiton Constituency Young Conservatives - honest guv, I was never a member, it was before Mrs Thatcher, I was young, I didn't know at the time, you never saw a copy of The Guardian for sale in Exmouth, how could I do it, how could I do it?  I realise this is a shameful admission which I have been hitherto managed to suppress from my memory.

I was not impressed by the performances, come to think of it.  The Northcott Theatre, Exeter, did The Boyfriend, Pal Joey and Guys and Dolls much better.

This board is as good as therapy at getting in contact with you sub-conscious without having to pay an arm and a leg to some pseud.

Thank you again, Tony.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #204 on: 21:55:52, 30-03-2008 »

because the scenery was worn out and the money just wasn't available to repair it.

That's not ever prevented the Bolshoi Theatre from presenting things Wink  Their production of UN BALLO IN MASCHERA has been going since 1956.   Meanwhile at Moscow Chamber Opera, their production of THE NOSE has not only been in repertoire continuously since 1968,  but tenor Boris Tarkov has sung the same role (the Adjutant) at every performance.  He is now 76, and comes back from retirement specially to perform it Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #205 on: 22:55:15, 09-04-2008 »

This posting is prompted by the news today that 4,000 LPs have recently been donated to a charity shop. (I know there's a thread about it elsewhere but that has taken a frivolous turn. My thoughts are that 4,000 records isn't that remarkable and I can't understand the fuss The Guardian is making. Also I'd be very surprised if they were worth £25,000 altogether but those points are probably so obvious to everyone else that no one has thought them worth bothering to mention over on that thread.)

However, a set of LPs that is often easy to find in charity shops is the Readers Digest Gilbert and Sullivan collection. The point of interest is that it's D'Oyly Carte stalwarts (mostly) singing roles they never sang on stage or on other recordings. This was because they were contractually bound not to record their usual roles for anyone else but Decca. It's worth looking out.

Also, I've just had a programme about Frankie Howerd on the television and he mentioned a film he once made called The Cool Mikado. It's generally reckoned to be awful and only very loosely based on the G&S version, but the LP of the film is very rare and worth quite a lot. If you see it in a charity shop, buy it if only to sell at a profit.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #206 on: 11:12:39, 10-04-2008 »

I was one of the frivolisers.  Sorry.

I must record, as someone who occasionally guides  round the Tower of London, two major solecisms of Gilbert's in The Yeoman.

A The Beefeaters are the Yeomen Warders of the Tower.  The Yeomen of the Guard are the Sovereign's bodyguard, and although they dress in a similar Tudor uniforms to the beefeaters, they are nothing to do with the Tower of London.

B Only very special executions took place on Tower Green, although two of them were definitely operatic, viz Anna Bolena and Roberto Devereux.  Also Lady Jane Grey, Catherine Howard and the aged Countess of Salisbury.  Also Jane Rochford who had the double misfortune to be Anne Bullen's sister in law and Catherine Howard's lady in waiting (executed for complicity with Catherine - funny Donizetti never got round to her.)

Other executions took  place in public on Tower Hill, as here:

  or in close up:

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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #207 on: 11:20:01, 10-04-2008 »


B Only very special executions took place on Tower Green, although two of them were definitely operatic, viz Anna Bolena

It's true, ANNA BOLENA was done to death in a performance in the Moat about three years ago.  I stayed for the first half only, the cruelty of the "execution" was more than I could stand Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #208 on: 13:44:11, 10-04-2008 »

That's an interesting point about Tower Green, Don B, and one I wasn't aware of. Dame Carruthers says at one pont that if everyone who dealt with the devil were beheaded on Tower Green it would be a very busy place. But obviously that's very unlikely and she should have known better. I also wonder whether such people would be beheaded anyway, whatever the venue, or whether they would be hanged or, worse still, burned at the stake as witches. Perhaps it's Fairfax's social standing that gets him a more privileged form of punishment.

As for the title of the opera, to be fair to Gilbert he never uses the term yeomen of the guard; they are always referred to as tower warders. It was Sullivan who wanted that title as he thought The Beefeater (the original title) sounded ugly.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #209 on: 13:01:40, 14-04-2008 »

A learned lecture on Sullivan for free at Gresham College  11 June, 6pm at Gresham's College, Holborn

http://www.gresham.ac.uk/event.asp?PageId=4&EventId=708
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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