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Author Topic: Prom 39: Gotterdammerung, Sunday Aug. 12th  (Read 2183 times)
Bert Coules
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« Reply #45 on: 00:12:40, 13-08-2007 »

I was only able to hear act three and I was disapointed that the announcer didn't describe just how the semi-staging was being done; I enjoy trying to visualise just what the audience in the hall are seeing, and a bit of help in that direction is always welcome.

And - a linked point - what a pity that such a monumental and visual evening isn't being televised.

Bert

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Ron Dough
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« Reply #46 on: 01:20:20, 13-08-2007 »

So was it just FM in Tayside that vacillated back and forth from stereo to mono with various clicks during this? Anybody else aware of problems?
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George Garnett
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« Reply #47 on: 07:18:39, 13-08-2007 »

I was listening on Freeview, Ron, but didn't notice any problems here.

Not being a real Wagnerphile (yet) I didn't have a raft of other performances to compare it with but I thought that was astoundingly good. I agree with everything Tony has said. It's time we started a campaign to lure Runnicles back to the UK. In everything I have heard him do he has transformed the orchestra he is working with and, my goodness, he did it again last night with a vengeance. And Christine Brewer and John Tomlinson in particular were just beyond belief.

There was a sense of real concentration and excitement from the packed audience in the hall coming across on the radio. Am very envious of those that were there and look forward to hearing from that happy band of R3OKers who were in on a landmark event. 
« Last Edit: 11:46:25, 13-08-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
ahinton
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« Reply #48 on: 07:58:35, 13-08-2007 »

This is indeed not standard BBCSO fare, which fact makes what I heard of the performance last evening (and, I'm sure, the remainder of it that I was sadly unable to hear) all the more remarkable. Outstanding almost beyond belief, indeed - and yes, if anyone does want to initiate a "bring back Runnicles" campaign, they'll certainly get my vote.

Best,

Alistair
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Tam Pollard
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« Reply #49 on: 10:07:42, 13-08-2007 »

Well, I was there and thoroughly enjoyed it (well worth the trip down). BBC SO at the top of their game (and Runnicles as ever showing so his usual flair for putting instruments in interesting places). The second act was absolutely thrilling (as was the whole thing really, but that was my highlight).

My only minor reservation was that though his performance was superb, the casting of Tomlinson, or rather the chap who played Alberich, didn't quite work as he was far younger and sounded it.

I thought Brewer was outstanding, and Andersen did about as good a job as you can expect from Siegfried these days. The choir was very good too.

Bert, as far as the 'semi-staging' goes, to be honest, there really wasn't anything to describe (and I was actually quite surprised someone was credited for it). Basically they just walked on and off when the script called for it, but otherwise stood at their music stands. There were one or two moments that might have been described as staged, but not really. However, such was the drama, I don't think that mattered. At the end there was a lot of red and orange light flickering, but to be honest, it wasn't really necessary as its all in the music and the effect was actually a little cheap. But it should have been televised all the same.


The only minor annoyance, arriving back now and checking my recording, there is an annoying interference on the first act (I'm sure it's an issue with my system so.....)

bws
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Bert Coules
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« Reply #50 on: 10:43:34, 13-08-2007 »

Tam, thanks for that.  I can't help but think it was a bit of a wasted opportunity: the Albert Hall could be a superb performance space for a rehearsal-dress semi-staged Götterdämmerung, though I suppose if the cast were using scores it does limit the possibilities.

One thing that did strike me about the performance was that there was, in the bits I heard, at least (act three and snippets of one and two), almost no extra-musical vocalising: no laughs, no screams, no gasps, none of the things that can help bring the drama alive over the radio.  A pity.

I thought Anderson was a nicely intelligent Siegfried and used the text well, and though he lacks the ideal strength and stamina for the part (as does, as you say, seemingly everybody today) there were no disasters and much that was perfectly fine.  I was a little surprised that he didn't even attempt the role's two high Cs, but perhaps it was a wise decision.  As for Hagen, Wagner cannily gives him that throwaway line about being old before his time, presumably because he anticipated exactly the kind of casting difficulty we had last night.  At the writing stage he might still have optimistically hoped that he could find a twentyish tenor for Siegfried, or at least one who looked and sounded it, but even he must have accepted that a twenty-year-old deep bass wasn't going to appear from anywhere.

All in all it sounded a splendid night.  I wish I'd been there.

Bert
« Last Edit: 20:29:33, 13-08-2007 by Bert Coules » Logged
ahinton
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« Reply #51 on: 11:13:12, 13-08-2007 »

My only minor reservation was that though his performance was superb, the casting of Tomlinson, or rather the chap who played Alberich, didn't quite work as he was far younger and sounded it.
John Tomlinson, a well-seasoned Wagner singer, is no spring chicken; he'll reach the age of 61 next month. I must confess that I have been somewhat perturbed on occasion recently at his tendency to bark abit (something he never used to do), although I was not at all conscious of this yesterday.

Best,

Alistair
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #52 on: 13:18:20, 13-08-2007 »

One thing that did strike me about the performance was that there was, in the bits I heard, at least (act three and snippets of one and two), almost no extra-musical vocalising: no laughs, no screams, no gasps, none of the things that can help bring the drama alive over the radio.  A pity.

I'm personally glad there weren't any extra laughs, screams or gasps. On recordings they can become tiresome very quickly and in concert unless they are done very well indeed they can easily sound hammy.

I think such sounds should only appear where specified: when Alberich steals the gold and the gods laugh at the Rhine maidens in Das Reingold, the laughing in the Ride of the Valkyries and Fafner the dragon's groans in Siegfried. (There might a couple more I can't think of.) In the Bohm Ring, Sieglinde screams when Siegmund pulls out the sword and it spoils the moment for me. I just try to filter it out.

It's interesting that there aren't laughs, gasps or screams in the Solti Ring (apart from the ones I've mention) given that Culshaw (the producer) was keen to introduce sound effects to increase the drama, such as the piling of the gold in Reingold and the collapse of Valhalla in Gotterdammerung.
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Bert Coules
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« Reply #53 on: 13:30:46, 13-08-2007 »

Tony,

Off the top of my head I can recall two specific examples of extra-musical vocalisation on the Solti Ring, both in Götterdämmerung and both of which, for me, add immeasurably to the dramatic impact: Siegfried gasps when Hagen's spear hits home, and the onlookers cry out when the dead Siegfried's hand rises up to prevent the theft of the ring - this latter giving real impetus to Brünnhilde's next words, when she tells everyone to be silent: a moment which sounded rather odd last night.

I agree completely, though, that badly done this sort of thing can be tiresome indeed.  Which is not an argument for not doing it - it's an argument for doing it well...

Bert
« Last Edit: 14:22:40, 13-08-2007 by Bert Coules » Logged
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #54 on: 13:46:04, 13-08-2007 »

[It's interesting that there aren't laughs, gasps or screams in the Solti Ring (apart from the ones I've mention) given that Culshaw (the producer) was keen to introduce sound effects to increase the drama, such as the piling of the gold in Reingold and the collapse of Valhalla in Gotterdammerung.

For me, one of the best effects in the Solti Ring is the very realistic thunder before Waltraute's arrival in Act I of Gotterdammerung - apparently Solti himself was not particularly keen to have it included but was convinced on hearing it.  On the other hand, Wotan throwing the Ring on the pile of gold in Rheingold doesn't really do it for me (and as I have mentioned here before, Solti's Ring doesn't really do it for me either, but that's another thread ...)

For me, one of the more vivid extra effects is in the Goodall Twilight of the Gods - the Vassals stamping (goose-stepping?) in time with the music as they greet Gunther and Brunnhilde.  The associations (not least given the political indiscretions of Goodall's younger days) are all too chilling.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Bert Coules
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« Reply #55 on: 13:58:21, 13-08-2007 »

For me, one of the more vivid extra effects is in the Goodall Twilight of the Gods - the Vassals stamping (goose-stepping?) in time with the music as they greet Gunther and Brunnhilde.

Not goose-stepping but slamming their staves in unison down onto the stage.  A heart-stopping moment in the theatre which I'd never seen done before, and a perfectly fine interpretation of Wagner's stage direction that they should "clash their weapons noisily together" - one of many extra sounds which he specified in the text.

Wotan's chucking of the ring onto the piled-up gold in the Solti Rheingold was famously acknowledged as a failure by Culshaw himself, who pointed out that one critic likened the sound to "a pebble being thrown into a chamber pot" (but how did he know?).  Culshaw rather ruefuly comments in his Ring Resounding that they might have got a better effect if they actually had thrown a pebble into a chamber pot.

Bert
« Last Edit: 14:48:25, 13-08-2007 by Bert Coules » Logged
HtoHe
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« Reply #56 on: 16:34:51, 13-08-2007 »

Just got back - and it was worth every mile of the 400 mile round-trip and every penny spent on tickets, fares and a central London hotel for last night.  I splashed out on stalls tickets as these cost little more than very poor seats would cost at the ROH.  Initially I was rather disappointed to find myself facing Mr Runnicles rather than the soloists (previous bad experiences in the choir seats at this venue came flooding back) but the voices all came through perfectly and it was a wonderful experience to see a great conductor at work.  And as the performers left the platform after each act it was great to see how much they were enjoying themselves; and Runnicles' broad smile and thumbs up to the chorus after Act 2 was priceless. 

I almost wished I'd been unsuccessful in securing stalls tickets because then I'd have been forced to prom, and the Arena looked to be the only place where the effect would have been even better.  But two hours in a packed arena on Saturday was a bit of a strain so maybe it's a good job we got the seats.

It's hard to pick out individuals without seeming to overlook the merits of those you don't mention but Tomlinson was astonishing.  The voice is showing slight signs of strain but it doesn't seem to matter.  The man's powers of communication are awesome.  Who needs semi-staging with this guy around?  Anyone with the slightest familarity with the story would know what was happening just by looking at Tomlinson's face!  Christine Brewer seemed to fill the hall effortlessly from where I was sitting; though somebody elsewhere said she didn't reach the Circle.  Gwenneth-Ann Jeffers as Gutrune was most impressive, as was Karen Cargill as Waltraute.  But that's not to take anything away from the other soloists, or, indeed, the chorus. 

I've got half a dozen more Proms left to see but if anything this season even approaches the experience of yesterday I'll be astounded.
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martle
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« Reply #57 on: 17:02:52, 13-08-2007 »

Another Gotterdammerunger exhaustedly reporting for duty!
Well, after three 1/2 hours queuing and watching the Wagner heads and weirdos doing the same, plus the full whack in the arena (which wasn't by any means completely full (so could have saved time there), standing, sitting in about 12 different positions (I counted them) in strict rotation, I can only say it was worth all the effort and discomfort a hundred times over. Oh, and the £5.
It always knocks me for six, and this was no exception. I'd agree with HtoHe about Tomlinson - the strain was quite obvious at times, but he's such a consumate performer he seemed to manage to turn it into characterisation! Orchestra superb most of the time, perfectly adequate the rest. And the atmosphere in the hall was quite exceptionally focused and intense. Wow.

Nice little story: afterwards, waiting for a bus. Man with arm round the shoulders of his blubbing wife/girlfriend, saying 'I know, I know, you're in that world all that time, and then you have to re-enter the world of catching a bus...'

Incidentally, I don't know whether others who were there will agree (eruanto?), but I think I noticed a curious kind of audience crossover with Lord ofthe Rings nuts - who must have heard somewhere along the way that the two things aren't altogether, er, disimilar...
« Last Edit: 18:30:40, 13-08-2007 by martle » Logged

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thompson1780
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« Reply #58 on: 18:17:10, 13-08-2007 »

Mart,

Does that predict the type of audiance member for the chamber music prom on 27 Aug?

I may go if that's the case.....

Tommo
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #59 on: 18:53:20, 13-08-2007 »

Is it suddenly hot summer down there, martle? You've suddenly gone brown instead of green...

Just to confirm Bert's description of the bangs on the Goodall Twilight; every vassal had a long pole about six feet long and about 3 inches in circumference (a cross between a spear and walking stick, if you like) and the bangs of assent were carefully rehearsed.

Those poles would appear again as the pyre was built for Siegfried: a trestle table centre stage, with the top of the hero's head facing the audience, and his feet pointing towards the reflective backdrop. The 'stout staves' were arranged just like runner-bean poles over the trestle. As the hall collapsed, two pillars which formed the wings on either side of the stage, and which were pivoted about a third of the way up and counterbalanced, slowly tipped towards each other and the centre, flattening the staves and crushing the trestle to the ground. I didn't know when I saw the first run that the corpse was a dummy: the rising arm of warning was actually operated by someone offstage pulling a bit of string controlling the pivoted limb.

(For complete anoraks I can reveal that the first operator was Jenny Bevan, who designed the roughly contemporaneous Carmen at Covent Garden, and has since designed films including Alexander the Great and Gosford Park.)
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